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Is TOMB OF HORRORS the Worst Adventure Of All Time?

Prevailing opinion here in the EN World community has traditionally held that the worst adventure module of all time is 1984's The Forest Oracle. 7th Sea designer John Wick (whose upcoming edition of 7th Sea is the third most anticipated tabletop RPG of 2016) vehemently disagrees; he nominates the classic adventure Tomb of Horrors for that position, contending that it "represents all the wrong, backward thinking that people have about being a GM." In an article on his blog (warning: this uses a lot of strong language), he goes into great detail as to why he hold this opinion, stating that the adventure is the "worst, &#@&$&@est, most disgusting piece of pig vomit ever published".

Prevailing opinion here in the EN World community has traditionally held that the worst adventure module of all time is 1984's The Forest Oracle. 7th Sea designer John Wick (whose upcoming edition of 7th Sea is the third most anticipated tabletop RPG of 2016) vehemently disagrees; he nominates the classic adventure Tomb of Horrors for that position, contending that it "represents all the wrong, backward thinking that people have about being a GM." In an article on his blog (warning: this uses a lot of strong language), he goes into great detail as to why he hold this opinion, stating that the adventure is the "worst, &#@&$&@est, most disgusting piece of pig vomit ever published".


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[lQ]"My players picked the entrance with the long corridor rather than the two other entrances which are instant kills. That’s right, out of the three ways to enter the tomb, two of them are designed to give the GM the authority for a TPK."[/lQ]

Very strong words, and you can read them all here. As I mentioned before, there's lots of NSFW language there.

The article also includes an anecdote about a convention game in which he participated. In that game, being already familiar with the adventure and its traps (and having advised the DM of this), he played a thief and attempted to discover or deactivate the traps, up until a near TPK occurred and he left the game.

Wick is, of course, no stranger to controversy. A couple of years ago, he created widespread internet arguments when he stated that "The first four editions of D&D are not roleplaying games."
 

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werecorpse

Adventurer
Since your mind is already closed, I'm sure that truth would only push you into "Pix or it didn't happen" denial mode.

But nevertheless...

1975 Origins.
D&D was a year old. Nobody knew if it'd be a dud or a hit. No clue.
There weren't any RPG tournaments yet.
TSR wasn't publishing adventures yet. No TSR character sheets yet, either. (Hat tip to 'Wee Warriors', a married couple from Michigan who had just moved to California, for launching both concepts.)

A small cadre from TSR, led by Gary, ran several tables. All were notoriously "no spectators!"; this was new stuff, new concepts.
At each table, one "best player" was selected. (Seven years later I returned to the same method when I founded the RPGA.)
And more than one table beat the Tomb.

Truth. Deal with it. Or not, your call; plenty of revisionism out there (and in this thread).

::cue Hussar's denial rant::
cya at the gaming tables...

F

(Zak S, some respond to truth & logic, but some don't. Pick your battles. ;> )

First, thanks for joining the discussion. I have a few questions if you are able to answer that would be great.

1.Did you play or DM?
2.What happened in your group?
3.How many players were at each table and how long was allocated to the session in the tournament (was it only 4 hours)?
4.Was this the tournament that was won by the "crown & sceptre" method of destroying the skull?
5.Did you use the characters as presented from the back of the published module?
6.how different was the tournament module from the one later published?


"More than one table beat the tomb" - how many played & failed? - what other method were used to defeat the demilich?

I know it's 40 years ago so it's a big ask but I would love to know as much as you can recall.
 

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darjr

I crit!
First, thanks for joining the discussion. I have a few questions if you are able to answer that would be great.

1.Did you play or DM?
2.What happened in your group?
3.How many players were at each table and how long was allocated to the session in the tournament (was it only 4 hours)?
4.Was this the tournament that was won by the "crown & sceptre" method of destroying the skull?
5.Did you use the characters as presented from the back of the published module?
6.how different was the tournament module from the one later published?


"More than one table beat the tomb" - how many played & failed? - what other method were used to defeat the demilich?

I know it's 40 years ago so it's a big ask but I would love to know as much as you can recall.

So when an eye witness account isn't good enough you move the goal posts?
 

Zak S

Guest
I'm not going to take anecdotes at face value. Not when perfectly reasonable explanations are sitting right there. What's the saying? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof? Gaming stories from a tournament forty years ago isn't exactly brimming with fact checking is it?

Jon Peterson fact-checks gaming stuff all the time.

And "I beat a module" isn't exactly an 'extraordinary claim'" nobody said "I beat the module with the help of ancient aliens".

As many many many many people have pointed out, all you need is tons of hirelings, chickens and other canaries to beat this dungeon. That was a much more common style of play back then.
 


Hussar

Legend
So when an eye witness account isn't good enough you move the goal posts?

To be fair [MENTION=52905]darjr[/MENTION], I'm the one expressing doubt.

And, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying no one ever completed the module. Not at all. I KNOW you can complete the module because I've DONE IT. I'm expressing some degree of skepticism that multiple groups, with zero forewarning, no outside knowledge, using ONLY pre-gen characters and no other resources, could complete the module (as written in 1978 - I don't know how closely the original tournament module follows the printed version) in 4 hours.

I'm NOT saying it's impossible. I'm saying that I remain skeptical.

Those must have been one helluva gathering of brilliant minds for several tables, first time through with no forewarning, using OD&D and Chainmail rules to boot, to beat that module. Hats off. That's impressive as all get out.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Jon Peterson fact-checks gaming stuff all the time.

And "I beat a module" isn't exactly an 'extraordinary claim'" nobody said "I beat the module with the help of ancient aliens".

As many many many many people have pointed out, all you need is tons of hirelings, chickens and other canaries to beat this dungeon. That was a much more common style of play back then.

But, that's the thing - this is a tournament module. None of those things are available. All you have is the character sheets in front of you and nothing else. Hiring dwarves to dig down an alternative entrance isn't an option.

I'll repeat it a third time. My group also beat this module. But, we did so, same as the idea you're expressing here, with far more resources than what's available in the tournament adventure.
 

Hussar

Legend
Did a little fact checking, and this is why I remain skeptical of anecdote.
[MENTION=6810442]ExTSR[/MENTION] talks about how they played the module at Origins 1976 (July 23-35 Baltimore, according to Wikipedia). Ok, fair enough. Thing is, the 1st printing of the 1e PHB (according to the Acaeum) is June 1978.

IOW, the module that people played that people bought in the store is a different one than was played at the original tournament. It has to be. The pregenerated characters in the store bought version are created using the Player's Handbook, but, those rules wouldn't be available for more than a year after Origins. So, right there, we have a possible explanation for discrepencies in experiences. The module I played (that I bought in the store) differs from the module that was played in 1976. How does it differ? I don't know. I honestly have no idea. But, is it possible for those differences to explain the differences in experiences? Again, I don't know, but, it does seem possible.

I'm really unsure why [MENTION=6810442]ExTSR[/MENTION] accuses me of ranting. I've been pretty forthright and forthcoming in my points. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong, although, to be honest, I suspect there is far too little actual evidence other than anecdote to actually make any informed judgement. But, I hardly think I'm being unreasonable. Why am I being told I'm "ranting"?

Like I said, I remain healthily skeptical. There are just far too many unanswered questions for me to simply say, "Oh, sure, no worries. Everyone else that reports having difficulty completing the module is just a poor player and too stupid to answer the challenge." It's going to take a bit more than vague, "Well, several tables completed it, so there" for me to actually believe that.
 

increment

Explorer
Did a little fact checking, and this is why I remain skeptical of anecdote.

@ExTSR talks about how they played the module at Origins 1976 (July 23-35 Baltimore, according to Wikipedia). Ok, fair enough. Thing is, the 1st printing of the 1e PHB (according to the Acaeum) is June 1978.
Frank (and the Wikipedia page for the Tomb of Horrors that shows up for me anyway) are correct that the Tomb was run at Origins in 1975, not 1976. You are correct that the PHB did not come out until 1978.

IOW, the module that people played that people bought in the store is a different one than was played at the original tournament. It has to be. The pregenerated characters in the store bought version are created using the Player's Handbook, but, those rules wouldn't be available for more than a year after Origins. So, right there, we have a possible explanation for discrepencies in experiences. The module I played (that I bought in the store) differs from the module that was played in 1976. How does it differ? I don't know. I honestly have no idea. But, is it possible for those differences to explain the differences in experiences? Again, I don't know, but, it does seem possible.
It is true that they are not the same adventure. The Origins Tomb was run for exactly 120 people in the 1975 tournament, eight parties of 15 players each. Yes, each party was 15 players, so they used the infamous "caller" rules. At four scheduled times in the convention, Gary Gygax and his son Ernie each simultaneously ran the adventure for one group.

It is thus not an entirely apples-to-apples comparison to look at the 15-player parties of OD&D pregens designed for the 1975 Tomb versus the 2-10 player parties designed for AD&D in the 1978 module version of the Tomb. The 1978 module does say that if more than 5 players are participating, each should control only one character, so, let's say it is designed for a 6 or so character descent as opposed to the 15 character descent of the Origins tournament. More disposable bodies are handy when dealing with so many traps and arbitrary ways to die.

It is similarly difficult to say whether the module version is more deadly without cherry-picking details that perhaps aren't representative given the differences in the system between OD&D and AD&D. The first false tunnel, which collapses for 5-50 damage in the 1978 Tomb, deals only 4-40 damage in the 1975 Tomb; and the gargoyle in room #8 that has 64 HP in the 1978 Tomb has only 42 HP in the 1975 Tomb.

At least one prominent gamer who played in the tournament - Mark Swanson, who came down to Origins from Boston - complained that the Tomb of Horrors was a really stupid adventure full of pits and traps that had no real depth to it. He also lamented that of the people in his party, only four of the fifteen had ever played D&D before, which made the adventure difficult to navigate. Characters were distributed in alphabetical order, so you didn't get to assign the most powerful characters to the most experienced players (and there are pretty vast differences in the power-levels of the pregen characters, they range from 12th to 4th level). His group didn't get very far.

Swanson sourly noted that parties that ran later in the convention weekend got inside information from previous tournament participants, which gave them an unfair advantage.

One group did manage to get the whole treasure at the end. The overall winner of the tournament was Barry Eynon, who was an experienced player from the Ryth campaign visiting from Michigan.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Nope, gotta admit it was a pretty negative rant.

Wow you've run the module seven times. Which systems and how did they go?
(I wouldn't have thought it would make much difference playing a less forgiving system -no chance to find a trap unless you look in the right spot and death no save seems the most common way of dying in the adventure and that's isn't affected by the system)

I am very interested in hearing how different groups went through the adventure.

I have run it for D&D 1st, 2nd (once each), twice with 3.5, twice with GURPS and once with RuneQuest III.

I have seen the crown and sceptre used once to destroy Acererak, an antimagic field to supress him whilst the group looted his room, a portable hole/bag of holding was used to deal with him once, two groups have escaped the dungeon after losses prior to the BBEG fight and one group used a Decanter of Endless Water and Potions of Water Breathing to deal with the pit traps and the flame trap corridor after doing extensive research on the place after interviewing Archmage Tenser himself about the dungeon (he and Robilar survived it in Greyhawk canon - fleeing the battle with Acererak) - half of them died in the BBEG fight though.

Interestingly, one Paladin became a Blackguard mid-dungeon, which definitely helped him survive, and a Wizard in another game sold his soul to a demon to get through it alive. But then I am lucky enough to generally have 'think outside of the box' role-players in my groups, so things can go anywhere sometimes.

In my experience, if someone complains of something being too difficult and therefore 'unfair' after going at it head on, expecting a straight rush in and hit it to work most of the time, then they are often enough the kind of player who is self-entitled, whether they realise it or not. Unfortunately this type of player is more prevalent these days, as the number of encounters per day and the CR of the challenges has become a codified thing which cements an expectation that this is the only way it can be done. The players having limited resources (like older version wizards and their very few spells at low level) is one thing - a half decent player will adjust and try to solve encounters without blowing their limited 'ammunition'. But now, you can actually be accused of being a 'bad DM' by some players for having the temerity to exceed the number of recommended encounters per day, exceeding CR or pressing characters (without them having made mistakes) after their x/rest resources are expended.

This limited and 'only inside the box' approach to the game was almost a strict requirement with the way 4th Edition rules worked. So much so my players and I abandoned it early on.

Personally I think the idea that all encounters must be entirely 'defeatable' using 'point and shoot' abilities or dice rolling alone is an unfortunate expectation baked-into to a certain extent with newer editions. This passively discourages creative 'outside the box' thinking ("I'm out of surges/spells/turns etc... so can't do anything.." kind of thinking.), and this is a great shame. Older editions of the game, and in fact some of the systems that rose at that time (like RuneQuest I) required more than the tabletop equivalent of MMO ability button mashing to deal with challenges and were I feel all the better for it.

It's no wonder this person or that cries foul and 'it's unfair' instead of thinking 'how else can we deal with this?'.

If you think this is an unfair appraisal, please consider that I have been DM'ing since the late 70's and have seen the trend develop slowly over time. Of course it doesn't apply to everyone who came to game latter on, but it is much more common than it used to be. Questions like "how do I deal with the 15 minute working day syndrome" just never got asked in yesteryear - the answer was self-evident back then insofar as the players were part of the solution and DMs just dealt with it. They didn't seem to need (and in fact didn't have) any advice or guidance, rules based or otherwise to resolve it, so they just did it.

Yet somehow we all managed to enjoy long-running campaigns without regular TPKs or problems with encounter balancing, despite the other types of shortcomings the earlier versions of RPG rules worked.

Things these days are far more 'spoon fed' if you strictly follow the guidance available, and naturally, any module predating this development are going to be seen by some as 'unfair' or 'the worst module ever' because that is the only benchmark they have for what it 'right'.

A solution for such hide-bound D&D DMs raised on this paradigm is to GM other game systems that don't have it. Run a GURPS game, or a RuneQuest game or similar - games that just say "here's how you make characters, here's how your play, here's a bunch of challenges of various types - GO!".

It will help them develop their own judgement on threat level and challenge without sitting there adding up numbers, and it will help their players be more adaptable in their approach to resolving encounters and situations in-game.

THEN perhaps, older modules like Tomb of Horrors or Lost Shrine of the Tamoachan can be revisited by them and enjoyed instead of being complained about...
 
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Zak S

Guest
But, that's the thing - this is a tournament module. None of those things are available.

Wait wait wait wait...

Is the claim "this is unbeatable without cheating" or "this is unbeatable without cheating in a tournament that allows no buying chickens" or "this is unbeatable with a legit leveled-up PC"?

Or have the goalposts been moved again?

Just state, in clear english, exactly the single sentence statement you are making, and everyone else should do the same.

And this question is not just for you but for EVERY person who has claimed it's "unbeatable" or "unbeatable without cheating"
 

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