D&D 5E Is Xanathars The New UA? AKA A Munchkins Book

[Treantmonklvl20]

LOL. It's like you don't know the difference between one resource being spent - a 2nd level spell slot - and all those other resources being spent - lots of HD AND a 2nd level spell.

Did I do something to you? Why the nasty tone?

Or that you don't realize that once the HD are spent they aren't coming back until a long rest.

You are incorrect. You only get 1/2 your HD back on a long rest. I said you only get 1/2 HD back on a long rest in my post when discussing the downsides of Rope Trick.

Since it's clear you didn't read my post or you would have known that, I can only assume you are trying to pick a fight. It won't work, I have no desire to insult you back. If insults continue, you will simply be blocked.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

You need two more points of comparison, to perform a reasonable evaluation: Taking a short rest without casting Rope Trick, and casting Prayer of Healing.

OK, let's consider those.

Rope Trick doesn't let you recover resources. It just allows you to exchange your existing resources (time and hit dice) with greater reliability. It increases the viability of taking a short rest in dangerous locations, where a short rest might otherwise be interrupted. But you spend the spell slot, and it doesn't actually make the rest take any less time, or give you any greater benefit from the hit dice you spend.

Exactly true. You have those HD with or without Rope Trick, however, when you are in a dangerous location tends to be when you need them most, and when they are the most difficult to access.

In a standard dungeon crawl, it can be extremely difficult to take a short rest. That's when Healing Spirit becomes so useful, and also when Rope Trick becomes so useful.

Tell me if this sounds familiar, your party is in a dangerous location, you can't reliably take a short rest, so you use up more resources as you can in between encounters until you have escaped or cleared the dangerous location. You don't have a time limit, but you simply aren't going to get an uninterrupted hour to rest. Then you end that part of the adventure, you are assumed to take a long rest, or many long rests, with the HD available on Short Rest never spent.

If that does sound familiar, then I would suggest that although your character had those HD, it was no different than not having them, since they were inaccessible.

I would also suggest, that in many cases, if they had been accessible, you wouldn't have needed additional between combat healing. This is when Healing spirit becomes most useful, when a short rest cannot be taken. It is also when Rope Trick is most useful, for the same reason. Now certainly some situations exist where there is an unseen clock ticking, and it's the hour long resting time that makes a short rest inaccessible, and yes, a Rope Trick can't help you there, but I'm sure you would agree that there are also situations where there isn't an invisible clock ticking, but taking a full minute to execute a Healing Spirit is dangerous out in the open.

Prayer of Healing is the currently existing out-of-combat group-healing option. It directly converts spell slots into healing. Out of combat, it does what Healing Spirit does; and it establishes the baseline for how much more effective out-of-combat healing is allowed to be, compared to in-combat healing. The comparison is direct: Healing Spirit is ten times faster, and heals five times as many HP.

That might be your experience. In my experience, the spell Prayer of Healing, though I've seen Clerics take it, and even offer to cast it, has never been used in my gameplay. Never.

Usually we have one or two party members that have taken the majority (or often all) of the damage. Now, just for example, let's say we cast Prayer of Healing. A 2nd level slot is used, and a total of 2d8+3 (assuming pre 4th level), or 12 points of healing to 2 targets. (24 points total). This requires 10 minutes.

It's almost always better to swallow some goodberries. 2 first level slots (2 slots total) heals 20 HP, except without requiring the 10 minute cast time, no worries about interruption, and those Hp can be distrubuted as needed (for example, if one player took all the damage).

Of course, Goodberry isn't intended to compete with Prayer of Healing. It's intended as a long term food source, and 10 mini 1 hp heal potions.

This illustrates just how bad Prayer of Healing is.

Is it possible the developers know how bad it is too?

Look at the Ranger. Xanathar's was clearly intended to fix some of the problems with bad Ranger options by offerring different excellent options. The worst of the Xanathar Ranger options is likely better than the best of the PHB options. Do you think that was a mistake? I don't.

Could it also be that the developers realize that Prayer of Healing fails to perform the function it was intended for, and therefore have little concern if another spell eclipses it? I can't say, I don't know the minds of the developers, but I would hope that is the case.

Healing Spirit gives benefits comparable to a short rest (with some trade-offs), at the sole expense of a spell slot. You spend only a spell slot, and everyone heals as though they had spent five hit dice, except they don't have to wait an hour or actually expend those hit dice. This is egregiously out of line with every other healing spell in the game.

Let's go back to my previous example, and let's look at a 3rd level party. We have a Fighter with a Con of 14. That fighter has 28 HP. We also have a Paladin, the Paladin has a Con of 14 too, also has 28 HP.

After a particularly nasty combat, the Paladin dropped to 10 HP, and the Fighter actually went down (brought back up to 4hp thanks to the Bard's healing word spell).

Now we have a Circle of Dreams Druid. This is a healing master. That Druid casts Healing Spirit and heals both back to full (we have 10 rounds uninterrupted in this scenario). That's 18+24 HP healed, or 42 HP.

Except the DM banned Healing Spirit. So instead the Circle of Dreams Druid hands out 40 goodberries. They used 4 first level slots rather than one second level slot. Yes, I would rather burn the second level slot, but lets dispense with the 10x more healing in 1/10 the time nonesense when comparing it to Prayer of Healing.

Rope Trick doesn't let you recover resources. It just allows you to exchange your existing resources (time and hit dice) with greater reliability

Here's how I would like to finish up. With a thought experiment.

Your party is walking along a river filled with healing water, but you don't have a method to draw the water.

I cast a spell that gives creates a jug, you draw the water and drink, healing yourself.

Does it matter that it wasn't the jug that provided the healing?

Maybe you are using all your short rest HD and needing even more healing inbetween combats. That could happen. Especially if you don't have a god wizard in your party preventing that massive re-occurring damage. If that is the case, isn't your DM being a bit of a sadist by not allowing Healing Spirit then?

 

[Mistwell]

I went into this debate thinking, "well yes I think healing spirit might be a tad overpowered and doesn't compare well to rope trick."

And now treatmonk's analysis has convinced me that, between the two...I might choose rope trick instead. It has other applications in addition to the safe harbor (including a magical anchor that levitates a 60' rope in the air, which can then be used as just a swinging rope or two spells can be used to create a rope bridge in mid air between two). It's just overall more utility for the spell. And he's right, we almost never run out of hit dice, and when we have the opportunity to take an uninterrupted rest we often could just take a long rest anyway.

It's an interesting way of looking at rest and healing. Thanks.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

In a standard dungeon crawl, it can be extremely difficult to take a short rest. That's when Healing Spirit becomes so useful, and also when Rope Trick becomes so useful.

Tell me if this sounds familiar, your party is in a dangerous location, you can't reliably take a short rest, so you use up more resources as you can in between encounters until you have escaped or cleared the dangerous location. You don't have a time limit, but you simply aren't going to get an uninterrupted hour to rest. Then you end that part of the adventure, you are assumed to take a long rest, or many long rests, with the HD available on Short Rest never spent.

If that does sound familiar, then I would suggest that although your character had those HD, it was no different than not having them, since they were inaccessible.

Yes, I get what you're saying. Rope Trick sometimes lets you access a resource which might otherwise go unused. In that way, Rope Trick is similar to Healing Spirit, in that they both give you a similar amount of healing in exchange for a spell slot; Rope Trick also gives you some other benefits, but takes an entire hour to use, which is why it isn't inherently superior to Healing Spirit. We're not in disagreement on that point.

Now certainly some situations exist where there is an unseen clock ticking, and it's the hour long resting time that makes a short rest inaccessible, and yes, a Rope Trick can't help you there, but I'm sure you would agree that there are also situations where there isn't an invisible clock ticking, but taking a full minute to execute a Healing Spirit is dangerous out in the open.

Sure, theoretically, I can imagine a situation where you can spare an hour in hiding, but you can't spare a minute in one place because you're being chased by something that's just barely far enough away that it won't notice you casting Rope Trick. It's incredibly unlikely, though. Such an obscure corner-case scenario is too contrived and unlikely to merit weight in this argument, and in any case, Healing Spirit does offer partial benefit if you can only spare a few rounds instead of the full minute.

That might be your experience. In my experience, the spell Prayer of Healing, though I've seen Clerics take it, and even offer to cast it, has never been used in my gameplay. Never.
[...]
Could it also be that the developers realize that Prayer of Healing fails to perform the function it was intended for, and therefore have little concern if another spell eclipses it? I can't say, I don't know the minds of the developers, but I would hope that is the case.

So you're saying that this extreme degree of power creep is intentional? That they went out of their way to balance and over-balance everything in the core book, such that everything was roughly comparable and useful, and then they decided to make the entire healing economy obsolete with a single spell that was an entire order of magnitude beyond every alternative?

And you would further suggest that it is reasonable for an out-of-combat healing spell - which only takes a minute, and which can still be used in-combat to somewhat diminished effect - should be ten times as efficient as the baseline in-combat alternative (Cure Wounds II)?

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm having a hard time following this discussion because I can't tell if we are talking about healing spirit RAW with the conga-line going over the healing spirit (giving everyone 10d6 hp) or the frequently proposed "nerfed but still good" version where it gives 10d6 total healing (a still pretty good use of a 2nd level slot if you ask me)

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Yes, I get what you're saying. Rope Trick sometimes lets you access a resource which might otherwise go unused.

Exactly, though I would not use the words "go unused", I would use the words, "are unavailable", unused suggests it was somehow optional.

which is why it isn't inherently superior to Healing Spirit. We're not in disagreement on that point.

We do agree, I never suggested it was superior to Healing Spirit. In fact, I've brought that up several times. My point was that it was comparable as a "keep the party alive" tool.

It's incredibly unlikely, though.

I don't think we are in agreement here.

Ever had to run away from battle because you were so beaten up you thought you might be facing a TPK?

Ever been chased by an enemy when you need a short rest?

How about a short rest in the middle of battle? Ever wish you could do that?

How about a rest somewhere with regular patrols? Or even worse, patrols you don't know the schedule of?

Those are off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with more. I suspect you could have come up with those and more if you had thought about it too.

and in any case, Healing Spirit does offer partial benefit if you can only spare a few rounds instead of the full minute.

In my first response to you I said:
"Upsides:
Healing Spirit:
- takes only one minute to receive full healing benefit, can recieve partial benefit in less time"

So you're saying that this extreme degree of power creep is intentional?

No, that's not what I said.

What I am saying is that it's NOT an extreme degree of power creep. Using Prayer of Healing as a point of comparison is not a good comparison as what would be a power-creep for second level spell use.

Here's what Healing Spirit actually does: it keeps a party alive.

Here's some other 2nd level spell options for Druids: Pass without Trace, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Find Traps.

All of those spells help keep a party alive (in various ways).

Can we objectively state that Healing Spirit is objectively an "extreme power creep" to the power of these spells? That's the question. If not, then it's not a problem.

and then they decided to make the entire healing economy obsolete with a single spell that was an entire order of magnitude beyond every alternative?

You're exaggerating again. It's an order of magnitude beyond one alternative. Just as other existing spells are orders of magnitude above that same alternative. It's a bad alternative. It's not a failing of Healing Spirit that Prayer of Healing is a bad spell, and not worth a 2nd level slot.

You also use the term "healing economy", as if healing is an island. Can we compare healing spells to abilities that heal? How about spells or abilities that prevent damage? Aren't these all intertwined? If so, then "healing economy" is an irrelevant term.

And you would further suggest that it is reasonable for an out-of-combat healing spell - which only takes a minute, and which can still be used in-combat to somewhat diminished effect - should be ten times as efficient as the baseline in-combat alternative (Cure Wounds II)?

Cure wounds x spell level is the "baseline" for combat recovery? I'm...going to let that go....

However, let's expand this:

Characters are more than HP. They are a mix of HP, Spells, Combat Superiority dice, Ki points, Inspiration points, Sorcery points, Action surges, Second Winds, Pact spells, wands, potions, etc.

When the designers tell us in the DMG that an X level party should be expected to Y number of Z rated challenges per long rest, they know, expect, and in fact count on characters working through all those resources.

recovery of HP accounts for only one of those resources. We shouldn't be talking about "healing economy" at all, we should be talking about "recovery economy". In fact, that's not even accurate, as there are so many ways to prevent the need for recovery:

For example, we haven't talked about the many ways to grant Temporary HP. Isn't that just superior to Healing? I mean, a spellcaster with temps can be damaged and doesn't have to make a concentration check.

We also haven't talked about the various ways to increase max HP. Isn't that also superior to healing? Higher Max HP means more damage before you go down, it also means more damage to kill you with massive damage. It also stacks with Temps.

We also haven't talked about the various ways to prevent damage. I've argued for years, and across editions that this is superior to any healing. Honestly, battlefield control spells have prevented more damage than healing spells have ever recovered. Oh, and bonuses to AC. Resistances. Oh, and the most obvious of all, that a dead opponent does no damage. Nor does a held one, or an incapacitated one. Frightened ones can still do damage, but they do much less.

Maybe we shouldn't be talking about "Healing economy" or "recovery economy" at all, because it ignores the fact that combat in D&D is filled with nuance, and its not a case of take damage-heal damage-take damage-heal damage. Instead it's about preparation, defense, prevention, controlling battlefields, debuffing enemies, buffing allies, positioning, and then maybe some healing.

Perhaps what we should be talking about is "Prevention and recovery economy". If we do that, then Healing Spirit is nothing special. It's the best out of combat healing option yes, but nowhere near the best way to keep party members alive, which is honestly its only purpose. Prayer of Healing and Healing Spirit do not belong to some special "healing" club. Every spell, ability or item that keeps a party alive is part of that club.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm having a hard time following this discussion because I can't tell if we are talking about healing spirit RAW with the conga-line going over the healing spirit (giving everyone 10d6 hp) or the frequently proposed "nerfed but still good" version where it gives 10d6 total healing (a still pretty good use of a 2nd level slot if you ask me)

Pretty sure we are talking about the conga-line version. The "10d6 total" version is still an excellent spell, but not absurd.

Oh, and the most obvious of all, that a dead opponent does no damage.

You clearly do not play in my campaigns.

 

[Mistwell]

Here's some other 2nd level spell options for Druids: Pass without Trace, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Find Traps.

All of those spells help keep a party alive (in various ways).

Can we objectively state that Healing Spirit is objectively an "extreme power creep" to the power of these spells? That's the question.

Those are all excellent spells. Of those spells, if I could only take one, it would be Pass Without Trace. That spell has saved our hides just too many times to pass it up. In fact, I don't think spells are "overpowered" generally but of those spells if I had to call one that it would be Pass Without Trace.

It's about as good as party-wide invisibility for an hour. It depends on the circumstances, but in my experience a +10 to stealth is often more handy than Invisibility. We usually have a guy in plate armor (who has disadvantage on stealth because he makes sound) and for that guy it is better than invisibility (which only cancels detection by sight, and even then they leave tracks). Disadvantage is roughly -5 to his stealth checks so it comes out as a net +5 to stealth. When you're trying to sneak past something, that's a lot better than invisible loud clanking from a -5 to stealth checks.

The dragon doesn't need to know your precise 5' location when it's breathing on the entire party it now knows is there because the knight is stomping past it's lair.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Completely agree. +10 stealth for everybody for an hour? Crazy good. Really takes the sting out of disadvantage for wearing heavy (or some medium) armor too. Had a Ranger that wore half-plate. He had a +4 stealth with disadvantage. With Pass Without Trace that meant a minimum roll of 15 stealth. Similar for the rest of the party too. Considering most enemy passive perception is in the 11-14 range, it basically is auto-success.

 

[Pauper]

And now treatmonk's analysis has convinced me that, between the two...I might choose rope trick instead.

If you use Rope Trick to do a short rest recovery in 'hostile territory' and aren't ambushed as soon as you come out of the extradimensional space:

1) You're in a very low level party whose opponents aren't aware of the trick,
2) Your DM isn't doing her job, or
3) You're playing Adventurers League.

In fact, a lot of the 'multiclassing is optional' and similar defenses of Healing Spirit completely fail to recognize that you need to append "...except in Adventurers League..." to the end of each of those statements.

--
Pauper