Item Creation Caster Levels (Is this true??)

[Janos Audron]

...the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level). (3.0 DMG p. 178)

LOL! No seriously, LOL!

This means that if you are 20th level, you cannot create Ioun Stones, since your caster level must be as high as the item's caster level!

More serious:

The first part means that, when you are a 10th level Wizard, you cannot create items with caster level 11. This sounds obvious, but stay with me:

A scroll can be created between minimum level of the spell and your caster level. Other magic items can be of any caster level.

Then, your quote.

Now, they define the caster level of items, so that a third level wizard cannot create an item with caster level 10. "the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level" means that when you are third level, you can make items with caster level 3. And more: you can create *all* wonderous items, but just at caster level 3, and you decide to make a Gem of Seeing...

"and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level"

...and then you read the prerequisites for a Gem of Seeing. Whoops, you need True Seeing. Since you cannot cast that spell until you are level 9, this has "effectivly put a higher minimum on the creator's level".

...the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. (3.0 DMG p. 179 & 183)

Indeed, the "caster level *requirements*", which means that, when no CL is given in the prerequisite section, the CL defaults to the lowest CL of the higest spell in the prerequisites section.

 

[dcollins]

LOL! No seriously, LOL!
This means that if you are 20th level, you cannot create Ioun Stones, since your caster level must be as high as the item's caster level!

"As high as" means "greater than or equal to". It does not mean "equal to".

Indeed, the "caster level *requirements*", which means that, when no CL is given in the prerequisite section, the CL defaults to the lowest CL of the higest spell in the prerequisites section.

Read carefully, the text doesn't say that. The "item's caster level" is actually that number printed in the description. For example:

The caster level of a magic weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. (3.0 DMG p. 183)

Hopefully you can see the difference between that and "the lowest CL of the highest spell in the prerequisites section". As many are fond of saying, prerequisites are a separate issue, they come later.

 

[Quixon]

Caster level IS NOT a pre-req to create items EVERY 3.0/3.5e designer has said so.

1. Is caster level included under pre-req? NO
2. If it is why do certain items(Ioun Stone) give a certian caster level but every other item doesn't
3. You honestly assume it takes the same caster level to create a 1st level Pearl of Power as a 9th(after all it lists 17th level as CL-regardless of type)

Again every 3.0/3.5 Game designer has said that it is not a pre-req. If you choose to not believe the people that wrote the rules in the first place,how can you claim the rules that they wrote are correct(unless you choose to only believe those parts that you agree with).

Typo's happen-if you believe CL is a pre-req for creating item then you also HAVE to impose exp. penalties on every PC who takes a Prestige class-since in the 3.5 DMG they didn't include a exception for prestige classes,even though it has been said this is a mistake and 3.0 rules are correct in that prestige classes do not count against the exp. penalty.

 

[Aristotle]

Caster level IS NOT a pre-req to create items EVERY 3.0/3.5e designer has said so.

The quote posted from Monte Cook seems to indicate this isn't so. He implies he doesn't feel it should be a pre-req, but as the book is written it still is. By the book it is a pre-req, and at least one designer has aparently backed this (I can't speak for others as I don't care enough about this issue to hunt down quotes). Thus you CAN NOT argue that it "is not a pre-req", nor that "every designer has said so". He clearly says it is. He may say that it wasn't the designers intention to make it that way, but he also admits that the current intent of the wording in the book is for caster levels to be used as a requirement.

If it is wrong then it will be corrected in an errata. Until then, you have to choose whether you want to play the game the way the designers say they would like it to be played or the way the rules state is should be played.

 

[Janos Audron]

Read carefully, the text doesn't say that. The "item's caster level" is actually that number printed in the description. For example:

The caster level of a magic weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. (3.0 DMG p. 183)

Hopefully you can see the difference between that and "the lowest CL of the highest spell in the prerequisites section". As many are fond of saying, prerequisites are a separate issue, they come later.

Good quote. However, it is inconsistent with the paragraphs "Caster Level" and "Prerequisites" on page 178: "Prerequisites" says that CL is a misc. requirement, like alignment, race and kind. This means that, like alignment, race and kind, not every item has a required CL. What "Caster Level" says, I've explained in a previous post.

What you're doing, forcing me to defend my position, leaves my other questions unaswered, so:

- I mean, if the CL given is automatically the required CL, then why do Ioun Stones have both a Caster Level and a CL in the prerequisites?

- How do Sorcerer's craft items with a 6th level spell and CL 11?

- Why are there items with a lower CL than the the minimum CL for the spells?

- Oh, and another fun one: the Potion of Vision. CL: 2nd. PR: Brew Potion, spellcaster 6+. Why is the CL 2 'required' (you insist that CL is a requirement) when CL 6+ is actually required?

- Does your explanation make sense to you when you look at the CL and prereqs of a Potion of Vision?

 

[kreynolds]

Thus you CAN NOT argue that it "is not a pre-req",

Sure I can. *clears throat* It's not a prereq! *in best Arnold voice*

 

[KarinsDad]

Before I get into the specifics of your examples, I just want to point out one thing:

When a general rule is X, it does not mean that there cannot be exceptions. For example, there are general rules on spell targeting, saves, etc. and every once in a while, a spell will be an exception to that rule.

There is no doubt that the designers have mentioned a few times that this was not their intent. This, by direct implication, means that they are not only aware of how it reads, but that the most reasonable interpretation of how it reads is that item caster level is a requirement, just like a quiet place to work is a requirement, but not in the prerequisite section.

And in 3 YEARS since the 3E books first came out, they have not corrected that. That's a lot of time to sit on the sidelines over an issue that comes up once a month or so.

- I mean, if the CL given is automatically the required CL, then why do Ioun Stones have both a Caster Level and a CL in the prerequisites?

Item Caster Level is different than Creator Level. They are two different things. Hence, since there are no spell associated with Ioun Stones, it may be as simple as the designers wanted to be totally clear that you have to be 12th level or higher to create ioun stones, but that ioun stones save versus dispel magic as 12th level items as well.

- How do Sorcerer's craft items with a 6th level spell and CL 11?

"and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on creator's level"

Note the difference between caster level and creator level which I think some people get confused on. Item Caster Level merely indicates how potent the item is, regardless of who crafted it. Creator Level indicates what level someone must be to craft the item.

If the spell caster has to be a higher level to cast a given spell than other spell casters, then in order to cast that spell, the prerequisite for him is to be higher level. The creator level must be higher. The caster level does not NEED to be the minimum for what is needed for him to cast the spell. It does not state that in the rules (only for potions, scrolls, and wands).

In your interpretation, your question here is a quandry because you are associating Item Caster Level with the minimum spell caster level required to cast the spell as if this were a scroll or potion. Item Caster Level and Minimum Spell Caster Level for the spell are two totally different things. That is where you are getting confused.

If instead you take the literal definition of Item Caster Level, this quandry goes away.

- Why are there items with a lower CL than the the minimum CL for the spells?

Because the item sets the caster level, not the spell.

With your interpretation, this could NEVER happen.

- Oh, and another fun one: the Potion of Vision. CL: 2nd. PR: Brew Potion, spellcaster 6+. Why is the CL 2 'required' (you insist that CL is a requirement) when CL 6+ is actually required?

- Does your explanation make sense to you when you look at the CL and prereqs of a Potion of Vision?

Yes it does. The ITEM CASTER LEVEL is 2nd. Why? Because the item says so. The Creator Level is 6th. No problem, no issue.

Granted, potions do not follow this rule normally, but here is a case where one does. And, this potion does not have a spell associated with it, so the designers explicitly put in that a spell caster must be 6th level to create it. It they had not done that, then a third level caster could have crafted the potion (i.e. the minimum level to get Brew Potion).

If you cast Dispel Magic at someone who has drunk a Potion of Vision, the magic of the potion saves at CL 2, not CL 6.


Now that I have answered your questions, I would like you or someone with your POV to answer mine.

I cannot comprehend how you can interpret the rules in your manner. It is not that I disagree with your interpretation, I just cannot understand how you can interpret the written text in that way. When the text says "the sky is blue", how do you come up with "the sky is red"?

Please explain how you interpret it the way you do. I must just be dense, but I cannot understand your position based on the written rules at all. If someone could clearly explain it step by step, rule by rule, I would appreciate it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Caster level IS NOT a pre-req to create items EVERY 3.0/3.5e designer has said so.

1. Is caster level included under pre-req? NO

Caster level is not a prerequisite. It is a requirement, just like a quiet place to work is a requirement, but not a prerequisite.

2. If it is why do certain items(Ioun Stone) give a certian caster level but every other item doesn't

Ioun Stones list a creator level in the prerequisite section, not a caster level. They are two different game elements.

3. You honestly assume it takes the same caster level to create a 1st level Pearl of Power as a 9th(after all it lists 17th level as CL-regardless of type)

Like you said below, typos happen.

Pearl of Power has a typo. Big deal. House rule it, or play it as is.

Again every 3.0/3.5 Game designer has said that it is not a pre-req. If you choose to not believe the people that wrote the rules in the first place,how can you claim the rules that they wrote are correct(unless you choose to only believe those parts that you agree with).

I also know that the game designers have not fixed it yet.

This is a rules forum. Game designer opinions are all nice and well, but they are not rules until they show up in a product, an erratum, or a FAQ.

Typo's happen-if you believe CL is a pre-req for creating item then you also HAVE to impose exp. penalties on every PC who takes a Prestige class-since in the 3.5 DMG they didn't include a exception for prestige classes,even though it has been said this is a mistake and 3.0 rules are correct in that prestige classes do not count against the exp. penalty.

Yes, you must follow the rules. Too bad. You can house rule otherwise. Until an erratum comes out though, THAT is the game rule. It might be a bad rule. You might not use it. But, it is the rule until it is no longer the rule.

 

[KarinsDad]

Because there are items like Ioun Stones (and there are a couple more of those items), where caster level is *actually in* the prerequisite section, I let the parts of the text where it says that you must meet the prerequisite CL refer *only* to those items. Items that do not list a CL in the prerequisites section have a CL equal to the lowest CL of the highest SL.

If they went through the trouble to give a specific CL to just a couple of items, then I think that they mean the CL is a prerequisite for those items only. I mean, if the CL given is automatically the required CL, then why do Ioun Stones have both a Caster Level and a CL in the prerequisites?

You are confusing caster level with creator level.

Ioun Stones do not have caster level listed in the prerequisite section. They have creator level listed in the prerequisite section.

You have to be careful with your terminology here.

And, except for scrolls, wands, and potions, there is no rule that caster level must be at least equal to the lowest creator level of the highest spell level.

Remember, you can craft an item with a scroll if you wanted to.

So, a third level spell caster could craft a Gem of Seeing if he had a scroll of True Seeing if it wasn't for the rule that the creator's level must be as high as the item caster level.

With your interpretation, item caster level doesn't mean anything and with the proper money, time, and scroll, a measly third level caster could craft a Gem of Seeing.

Yikes!

 

[dcollins]

KarinsDad did a good job of responding to Janos Audron, I won't redo it blow-by-blow. In short:

Does your explanation make sense to you when you look at the CL and prereqs of a Potion of Vision?

Absolutely. This is answered in the FAQ on my website because it comes up so much: www.superdan.net/dndfaq2.html

I've spent some time responding to your questions with rules quotes already. Now I'll line up the counter-arguments and ask if there are any rules text to support them (knowing in advance that they're are not):

- Potions need separate spellcaster prerequisites because they're explicitly the type on p. 178 that the creator is allowed to set to any number. Same for scrolls (Hence the need for a spellcaster prerequisite on the scroll-based caster's shield and none of the other armor or shields).

- How can the "caster level" listed for a Potion of Vision be an "average" creator level when every creator must be a higher level in the first place? That's not even mathematically possible. (Note that all spellcaster prerequisites in the 3.0 DMG satisfy this, any spellcaster prereq >= caster level. If it were the other way around, anywhere, then you'd have a point.)

- Are there are any rules quotes anywhere that say the listed "caster level" is just an average for found items, and can be adjusted by creator choice? (No.)

- If caster levels are always officially adjustable by the creator, then, for example, what is the official market price of a 3rd-caster-level pearl of power? (Not answerable under the core rules.)