Iterative Attacks for Monsters

[Atavar]

Hello EN World,

An Abyssal Greater Basilisk has a Base Attack Bonus of +18. However, he only gets a single bite attack when doing a full attack?

Why? Why doesn't he get four such attacks (at +18/+13/+8/+3 BAB)?

Also, per the Monster Manual a creature with a gaze attack makes such an attack as an attack action. Can the above basilisk use a full attack action to make four gaze attacks? If not, why not?

Bottom line, I'm confused about iterative attacks and creatures. I'd appreciate any good and accurate insight anyone can provide.

Thanks,

Atavar

 

[frankthedm]

Bottom line, I'm confused about iterative attacks and creatures.

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

There you go.

This is what kind of balaces natural attacks out. While the lizard man Barbarian 10 can Claw, Claw, Bite; it can never get more than those using BAB. He could grab a greatclub, swing his +11/+6/+1 and then make a bite, if so wanted to though.

Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

 

[Arkhandus]

Because natural weapons are different. Natural weapons are separate.

The basilisk could make a series of unarmed strikes (or weapon attacks, if it could wield any weapons) as appropriate to its BAB, but not a series of Bites. Just the way the system works.

 

[Atavar]

How about the gaze attack? Is that considered "physically part of" the creatture?

Also, when a warforged attacks with his wielded weapon and his slam attack while making a full attack, what penalties apply to his attacks?

Thanks,

Atavar

 

[Baby Samurai]

Also, when a warforged attacks with his wielded weapon and his slam attack while making a full attack, what penalties apply to his attacks?

The slam would be at -5, just like any other secondary natural attack.

The problem to me isn't that natural attacks don't jive with the system, it's that iterative attacks are a dribbling, clunky mechanic.

 

[ThirdWizard]

How about the gaze attack? Is that considered "physically part of" the creatture?

It's a Supernatural Ability so it takes a standard action to activate.

 

[Atavar]

It's a Supernatural Ability so it takes a standard action to activate.

It is a supernatural ability. However, here is what the SRD says about gaze attacks.

A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action.

However, why bother calling it an attack action if a creature can never use it as part of a set of iterative attacks?

Thanks,

Atavar

 

[irdeggman]

It is a supernatural ability. However, here is what the SRD says about gaze attacks.However, why bother calling it an attack action if a creature can never use it as part of a set of iterative attacks?

Thanks,

Atavar

Because iterative attacks are a full attack action (a type of full round action).

A warlock can only use his eldritch blast one time a round (barring certain feats) regardless of his BAB. (spell like abilities also follow the rule of being a standard action like supernatural ones do)

There is no such thing (in 3.5) as an attack action. An attack is a type of standard action. It is sometimes difficult to keep the terminology straight, but it actually helps to envision what the rules are actually stating when the exact terminology is used.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is no such thing (in 3.5) as an attack action.

Sure there is.

It's in the Standard Actions section, labelled 'Attack'. Just like the cast a spell action is labelled 'Cast A Spell', and the charge action is labelled 'Charge'.

Which is just as well, since if there were no such thing as an attack action, it would make these rules difficult to interpret:

"When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll..."

"When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack..."

"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack..."

"As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action..."

The standard action, 'Attack', is also referred to as 'the attack action'. The full-round action, 'Full Attack', is also referred to as 'the full attack action'. The full-round action, 'Charge', is also referred to as 'the charge action'.

An attack doesn't require the attack action; you can make an attack on the attack action, the full attack action, the charge action, or an AoO; you can make an attack as part of the cast a spell action; you can attack with a standard action that is not the attack action using a feat like Manyshot. But the attack action exists, and it is required for certain feats like Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise.

You can't use Combat Expertise on a charge, for example, because a charge is neither the attack action nor the full attack action.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Sure there is.

It's in the Standard Actions section, labelled 'Attack'. Just like the cast a spell action is labelled 'Cast A Spell', and the charge action is labelled 'Charge'.

Which is just as well, since if there were no such thing as an attack action, it would make these rules difficult to interpret:

"When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll..."

"When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack..."

"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack..."

"As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action..."

The standard action, 'Attack', is also referred to as 'the attack action'. The full-round action, 'Full Attack', is also referred to as 'the full attack action'. The full-round action, 'Charge', is also referred to as 'the charge action'.

An attack doesn't require the attack action; you can make an attack on the attack action, the full attack action, the charge action, or an AoO; you can make an attack as part of the cast a spell action; you can attack with a standard action that is not the attack action using a feat like Manyshot. But the attack action exists, and it is required for certain feats like Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise.

You can't use Combat Expertise on a charge, for example, because a charge is neither the attack action nor the full attack action.

-Hyp.

True, as was I.

It is technically a type of standard action. Which was my point.

An attack is a type of standard action, like movement is a type of move action.

In order to get more attacks in a round (based on a high BAB, two weapons or other method) you must use the full attack action (a type of full round action). But we know that already and that is why you don't get multiple standard actions a round (based on a high BAB) but only "attacks".

The question I was addressing was about using multiple supernatural actions (as if they were attacks) and referring to them as "attack actions", which mucks up the difference.

A supernatural ability (unless stated specifically otherwise) is not an attack action but a standard action.

If we continue to call things attack actions (as if that was something other than a subset of a standard action) then it will continually lead to the confusion (and logic being used) by the post I was answering.

If we recognize that when attack action is used it is not a separate type of action but rather a type of standard action then things become clearer and the rules make more sense. Reinforcing the confusion by not pointing out that there are certain categories of actions (e.g., move, standard, full round, free, non-action, swift and immediate) and certain kinds of sub types of those actions (attack, movement, full attack, charge, etc.) will only aid in the people understand what the rules are actually saying.

So I appologize for not really making it clear what I was talking about earlier.