D&D 4E JamesonCourage Is Starting A 4e Game; Looking For Pointers

[JamesonCourage]

I have some advice here, although it probably overlaps with what you've already been told. Anyway: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...4e-Plunge-Helpful-hints&p=6111319#post6111319

Thanks for the link (XP sent your way)!

You should tell PCs when they're confronting minions. The brain mole monster (okay, it's an April Fool's joke, but still from WotC) isn't a minion but makes itself look like one.

You don't want PCs wasting daily abilities on a minion. (But killing seven minions with one AoE daily spell is perfectly alright.)

Yeah, killing several minions with a daily would be fine, but I really don't want them to feel shafted because they used a helpful daily power on a single minion (or an encounter power if there are non-minions present). Hmm.

No need to bring up the metagame. If the equipment is different, sure ("one of the orcs is clad in black plate armor covered in nicks and dents, and the others seem to shy away from him"), but otherwise let them sort out who's a minion and who's not. If they blow a daily to take care of three or four minions, it's okay (4e is forgiving enough when it comes to recovering resources). Let them roll damage, and then annouce the targets are dead (as if they died from the damage dealt, not from their 1 hp).

I think that'd work some of the time, but I expect the experienced player to realize that they hadn't been damaged yet. Then again, the players seem kinda uninformed about DM-side rules in 4e (they seemed to just nod and give me a vacant smile when I mentioned I know about some DM stuff in 4e, like monster roles). So, this might work out.

Another thing: lots of DMs fall into the trap of making only balanced encounters, with foes of the PCs' level. Don't be afraid to mix it up. Throw a few normal creatures that are five levels below the PCs for that "quasi-minion" feel, and throw an elite that is three levels higher to make them sweat. 4e PCs are very capable, so don't be afraid of putting them to the test.

Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to trying this sort of stuff as I start to feel out their limits, and as they level up. It'll be interesting to see how they react to stuff, and to find out just what they're capable of. Thanks for the advice

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Just a note about "super elites" and the like. I ran Keep on the Shadowfell and it featured some monsters several levels over that of the PCs. And it wasn't fun. (The boss was 4 levels over that of the PCs, and due to the poorly constructed original monster rules, had defenses as if he were 6 levels higher.) The PCs can't hit, and if you can't hit, you can't do cool stuff like hand out warlord bonuses.

At 1st-level.

IME, paragon PCs can face opponents up to three levels over them without too much trouble though.

You don't need to stick to a balanced XP budget though. Hard battles should be worth more XP and come with a greater challenge; I would recommend using more opponents (or making everyone elite) rather than leveling up opponents, at least for a low heroic campaign.

 

[n00bdragon]

Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to trying this sort of stuff as I start to feel out their limits, and as they level up. It'll be interesting to see how they react to stuff, and to find out just what they're capable of. Thanks for the advice

I feel I should emphasize this. 4e characters are not squishy and if you go in with the same encounter design mentality as you do in other editions your combats will be very short and mostly dull. One or two of those encounters are fine to get you into the swing of things but once you're ready to spill some blood I would aim to make every deadly and then adjust about 25-50% more difficult than that. On paper it should look like a TPK waiting to happen. In general here's some things that organized parties tend to kill very quickly when that's all you have:
Loads and loads of minions: A blob of 16-20 minions is not a substitute for an encounter. Minions are dangerous but they shine the most when the party has something else (or preferably multiple other things) to go "oh crap" at. Minions also get less dangerous individually the more there is. 4 minions can substitute for a regular monster, but 8 can't substitute effectively for two, try 10 or 12.
Just a solo: This has the added bonus of being terribly boring. Unless you have some terrain effects or super powers that keep things moving these will get boxed into a corner and murdered. They are designed as a challenge for 5 players, so with the difficulty advice that means add about 50% more. Perhaps a dozen minions or a few lieutenants.
Lots of guys with melee attacks: There's nothing wrong with melee bad guys. Having all melee bad guys though severely restricts who the bad guys can threaten. Remember that defenders want bad guys to latch onto them. You don't want all your monsters latched onto them, so add something with ranged attacks to almost every encounter so the cleric can't rest easy and safe.
Lots of the exact same monster: Monsters generally like to fight in a certain way and if the party can adjust to negate that one way of fighting you'll never get a KO. For example, if you have lots of guys who do well when they can be mobile a big mass effect immobilization power will make the encounter a wash. If only some guys care about being immobilized your enemy forces are a lot more resilient.

And don't be shy about pounding on players when they are down. If you're not KOing a player every other fight at LEAST you're not really putting enough pressure on them. Even the wizard has enough surges to fully heal himself 1.5 times per day on surges alone before adding con mod to the equation, and the effects of players falling over isn't as severe as in previous editions. Go for the throat and you'll make some really satisfying and exciting battles your players will tell stories about.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Just a note about "super elites" and the like. I ran Keep on the Shadowfell and it featured some monsters several levels over that of the PCs. And it wasn't fun. (The boss was 4 levels over that of the PCs, and due to the poorly constructed original monster rules, had defenses as if he were 6 levels higher.) The PCs can't hit, and if you can't hit, you can't do cool stuff like hand out warlord bonuses.

You don't need to stick to a balanced XP budget though. Hard battles should be worth more XP and come with a greater challenge; I would recommend using more opponents (or making everyone elite) rather than leveling up opponents, at least for a low heroic campaign.

Good to note; I'll likely experiment a little bit. Thanks for adding this, as I'm still trying to absorb all the tips people feel like giving.

I feel I should emphasize this. 4e characters are not squishy and if you go in with the same encounter design mentality as you do in other editions your combats will be very short and mostly dull. One or two of those encounters are fine to get you into the swing of things but once you're ready to spill some blood I would aim to make every deadly and then adjust about 25-50% more difficult than that. On paper it should look like a TPK waiting to happen.

Very interesting. Thanks for the tip (XP sent your way!).

In general here's some things that organized parties tend to kill very quickly when that's all you have:
Loads and loads of minions: A blob of 16-20 minions is not a substitute for an encounter. Minions are dangerous but they shine the most when the party has something else (or preferably multiple other things) to go "oh crap" at. Minions also get less dangerous individually the more there is. 4 minions can substitute for a regular monster, but 8 can't substitute effectively for two, try 10 or 12.

Oh, good to note. I'm sure there's an art to it, and as I plan to use minions often, hopefully helpful hints like this can help me hit a good balance quickly.

Just a solo: This has the added bonus of being terribly boring. Unless you have some terrain effects or super powers that keep things moving these will get boxed into a corner and murdered. They are designed as a challenge for 5 players, so with the difficulty advice that means add about 50% more. Perhaps a dozen minions or a few lieutenants.

Cool, that's about what I thought

Lots of guys with melee attacks: There's nothing wrong with melee bad guys. Having all melee bad guys though severely restricts who the bad guys can threaten. Remember that defenders want bad guys to latch onto them. You don't want all your monsters latched onto them, so add something with ranged attacks to almost every encounter so the cleric can't rest easy and safe.

This is a good piece of advise. I should make a short list of stuff to strive to do (with encounters or whatever), and make this is on it, so I don't forget.

Lots of the exact same monster: Monsters generally like to fight in a certain way and if the party can adjust to negate that one way of fighting you'll never get a KO. For example, if you have lots of guys who do well when they can be mobile a big mass effect immobilization power will make the encounter a wash. If only some guys care about being immobilized your enemy forces are a lot more resilient.

Okay, good to note.

And don't be shy about pounding on players when they are down. If you're not KOing a player every other fight at LEAST you're not really putting enough pressure on them. Even the wizard has enough surges to fully heal himself 1.5 times per day on surges alone before adding con mod to the equation, and the effects of players falling over isn't as severe as in previous editions. Go for the throat and you'll make some really satisfying and exciting battles your players will tell stories about.

Okay, I'll have to let myself get vicious a little sooner than I first thought I would, but I'll try to do this. Negative bloodied is a much bigger buffer than what I'm used to working with, so we'll see how they do. Hopefully one of them plays a Leader of some sort, though, because I don't think they'll be doing what pemerton's party does (that is, spreading some healing around when they don't have a leader). Thanks for the tips

 

[pemerton]

Interesting to see the range of 4e styles:

• metagame scaling - which is how I tend to do it - vs ingame region/setting scaling of the the sort [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] talks about;
  
• overt minions vs covert minions - I tend to not be too overt, but my players can guess when I lay down 8 of the same token (I see this as a bit like [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s skill challenge device - non-verbal metagame cues that sit alongside but don't interrupt the back-and-forth naration);
  
• different takes on using the mythology (eg I use the Underdark, and the Shadowfell, but to date the Feywild has been a place of aspiration for the PCs rather than somewhere they've actually been);
  
• the range of approaches to items, feats etc.

For me, this is one of the more optimistic/inspiring ENworld threads for a while, so thanks all!

 

[Manbearcat]

Before I address the below, I can't xp but the "4e Cosmology for Dummies" post 10 and 11 by @Neonchameleon and @Balesir are both pretty much nails. Stick-worthy for any newbie getting into the game.

And this

• overt minions vs covert minions - I tend to not be too overt, but my players can guess when I lay down 8 of the same token (I see this as a bit like @Manbearcat 's skill challenge device - non-verbal metagame cues that sit alongside but don't interrupt the back-and-forth naration);

For me, this is one of the more optimistic/inspiring ENworld threads for a while, so thanks all!

Again, I can't xp but "non-verbal metagame cues that sit alongside but don't interrupt the back-and-forth narration" is probably as good phraseology as I've written or read to advocate for the technique of liberal usage of non-invasive (to the running narrative) metagame props. I'll have to remember that.

And I agree, most optimistic/inspiring ENworld thread for a good while.

I appreciate the help.

I'm sort of naturally an improvisational GM, so this will help a lot. Thank you. I do plan to pull a lot of monster stats from my DDI account, but if I ever need something quick on the fly, this will help out.

Its no trouble. Glad to help. And that was my takeaway from your posts (that you're an improvisational GM) so I figured it would help. Because of that (and your experience with Skill Challenge frameworks), my guess is that your learning curve will be shallow and your turnaround from novice 4e GM to running a tight, evocative game will be pretty immediate.

That's a good idea. I specifically didn't want them to have two characters each (so they could focus on RPing their one character), but having a sort of minion is a decent thought. The "force construct" idea is particularly good, as there's no new character there to RP, and it just enhances the Psion's abilities.

Here is a quick 1st level rendering that you can either use full bore or pick apart at your discretion. If you want the player to use it for non-combat, then just give it 4 trained skills and a Skill Power.

Force of Mind
Level 1 Medium Projection (Defender)
HP 32; Bloodied 16 Healing Surge 12 @ 8 Initiative +2 Speed 6
AC 18 Fortitude 16 Reflex 13 Will 13

Traits

Thy Will Be Done * Aura 2 (psychic)
While in the aura, enemies take a -2 penalty to attack rolls against creatures other than the Force of Mind.

Force Construct
An enemy cannot enter the Force of Mind's space by any means.

Standard Actions

[MBA] Psionic Slam (force) * At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); L + 4 vs. Ref
Hit: L+ 10 force damage

Bonds of Force (force) * At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); L + 4 vs. Fort
Hit: L+ 8 force damage and the target is slowed until the end of its next turn.

Psychic Beckoning (psychic) * At-Will
Attack: Ranged 5 (one creature); vs. Will
Hit: L + 8 psychic damage and you can pull the target 3 squares.

Move Actions

Astral Jaunt * Encounter
Effect: The Force of Mind ends any slowing or immobilizing effect on it and teleports up to 5 squares.

Triggered Actions

Mind Spike (force, psionic, psychic) * At-Will
Trigger: An enemy in the Thy Will Be Done aura deals damage to an ally with an attack that doesn't include the Force of Mind.
Effect (Immediate Reaction): The enemy takes force and psychic damage equal to the damage that its attack dealt to your ally.

Potentially some sort of orc archer, but that's only about 50%. The other two potential players haven't played before, so I don't know. When we do make characters, it will be as a group, and I'll likely advise they have a well-rounded group, but I don't think I'll force it. Any thoughts on the 4-person group? I'll ask for more about a 2-person group if that turns out to be the case, and when I know what the other player will be using.

I'm assuming a PHB Twin-Strike Ranger as archer rather than a Slayer archer or a Hunter, Seeker, Warlord archer or Cleric archer. Its difficult to say what the other two should be. A group of 4, tactically adept, Strikers and Controllers can dominate encounters. Its mainly when you get to the fights with heavy hitting Solos, Elites or force multiplication with Leader + Artillery etc that you really need a stout Defender (type) to soak the incoming damage and dictate target acquisition. A Barbarian and a Warlord is never a bad combo to round out a group. I like the Fighter as the best all-around Defender so that coupled with the tried-and-true Cleric is never a bad option...or Cleric/Ranger Hybrid (with the Ranger portion of the build being of the Twin Strike and Immediate Action variety) is one of the few highly functional hybrid builds. Check with pemerton on that one as one of the PCs in his game runs that.

I don't have one, and I appreciate the offer, but you don't need to do that! That's very generous of you, though. I'd feel a bit odd having you send me one when I haven't even started out yet. However, since it seems that important, I'll look into borrowing one (from somewhere, I'm not sure I know anyone with it) or buying one. Any suggested sections for it in particular that are that helpful?

Thanks again. I appreciate it.

Honestly, pretty much the whole book. But if I had to pick a few areas specifically, I'd go with:

Chapter 1:

- Story Structure.
- Cooperative World Building.
- RP Hooks.
- Vignettes.
- Drama Rewards.
- Companion Rules.

Chapter 2:

- Encounter as Story.
- Encounters for Small Groups.
- Encounters and Attrition (specifically the varying Pacing).
- Creating Movement.
- Terrain.

The entirety of Chapter 3 (Skill Challenges) is can't miss. Pretty much quintissential non-combat, conflict resolution advice.

Chapter 5:

- Alternative Rewards.
- Artifacts.

 

[pemerton]

Cleric/Ranger Hybrid (with the Ranger portion of the build being of the Twin Strike and Immediate Action variety) is one of the few highly functional hybrid builds. Check with pemerton on that one as one of the PCs in his game runs that.

It seems a pretty good buid to me. You have 1x/enc healing word, and use your other utilities to acquire healing ability. You use your dailies to get good cleric AoEs. And you use your encounter powers for off-turn ranger actions (reactions, interrupts) to make sure you can deliver you quarry damage (which is applicable only to ranger attacks) on those turns when you use your standard action for a cleric ability.

For a newbie it could be a bit fiddly because of the off-turn actions, though on the other hand these don't really become a factor until mid- to upper-Heroic, at which point [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]'s players won't be newbies anymore.

On the 4-PC party more genrally - sounds fine to me - with an archer and a psion, I'd probably suggest at least one melee-capable PC who can supply healing to self or others (eg a dwarf fighter, a warlord, a melee cleric, a paladin) and then the other PC to taste.

Also, in mentioning archer builds upthread I forgot to mention the archer warlord, which is a STR-based archery build, and could be fun for an orc (given orcs aren't famous for their INT or their CHA, I'd probably make it a STR/WIS orc archer warlord).

 

[JamesonCourage]

Interesting to see the range of 4e styles

I agree.

For me, this is one of the more optimistic/inspiring ENworld threads for a while, so thanks all!

And I agree, most optimistic/inspiring ENworld thread for a good while.

I have that effect on things (Obviously kidding, but this is a good thread so far, and I hope it keeps up.)

Before I address the below, I can't xp but the "4e Cosmology for Dummies" post 10 and 11 by @Neonchameleon and @Balesir are both pretty much nails. Stick-worthy for any newbie getting into the game.

All of the overviews of the setting have been very, very helpful. I'm glad they did it, and might point to it if others ask in different threads later on.

Its no trouble. Glad to help. And that was my takeaway from your posts (that you're an improvisational GM) so I figured it would help. Because of that (and your experience with Skill Challenge frameworks), my guess is that your learning curve will be shallow and your turnaround from novice 4e GM to running a tight, evocative game will be pretty immediate.

Thanks, that's what I'm hoping for

[sblock]Here is a quick 1st level rendering that you can either use full bore or pick apart at your discretion. If you want the player to use it for non-combat, then just give it 4 trained skills and a Skill Power.

Force of Mind
Level 1 Medium Projection (Defender)
HP 32; Bloodied 16 Healing Surge 12 @ 8 Initiative +2 Speed 6
AC 18 Fortitude 16 Reflex 13 Will 13

Traits

Thy Will Be Done * Aura 2 (psychic)
While in the aura, enemies take a -2 penalty to attack rolls against creatures other than the Force of Mind.

Force Construct
An enemy cannot enter the Force of Mind's space by any means.

Standard Actions

[MBA] Psionic Slam (force) * At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); L + 4 vs. Ref
Hit: L+ 10 force damage

Bonds of Force (force) * At-Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature); L + 4 vs. Fort
Hit: L+ 8 force damage and the target is slowed until the end of its next turn.

Psychic Beckoning (psychic) * At-Will
Attack: Ranged 5 (one creature); vs. Will
Hit: L + 8 psychic damage and you can pull the target 3 squares.

Move Actions

Astral Jaunt * Encounter
Effect: The Force of Mind ends any slowing or immobilizing effect on it and teleports up to 5 squares.

Triggered Actions

Mind Spike (force, psionic, psychic) * At-Will
Trigger: An enemy in the Thy Will Be Done aura deals damage to an ally with an attack that doesn't include the Force of Mind.
Effect (Immediate Reaction): The enemy takes force and psychic damage equal to the damage that its attack dealt to your ally.[/sblock]

Wow, very cool. I'll definitely either use it as it is or use it as a strong guideline if I need to make it (which I'll know after the other 2 potential players give solid input on joining the campaign). Thanks for doing that work, I appreciate it.

I'm assuming a PHB Twin-Strike Ranger as archer rather than a Slayer archer or a Hunter, Seeker, Warlord archer or Cleric archer.

I know for sure that he wasn't a Ranger before, but I might try to get him to play a half-orc Ranger rather than an Orc something-else-archer if he plays the same concept. But, like I said, I'm only about 50% that he'll even play that right now.

Its difficult to say what the other two should be. A group of 4, tactically adept, Strikers and Controllers can dominate encounters. Its mainly when you get to the fights with heavy hitting Solos, Elites or force multiplication with Leader + Artillery etc that you really need a stout Defender (type) to soak the incoming damage and dictate target acquisition. A Barbarian and a Warlord is never a bad combo to round out a group. I like the Fighter as the best all-around Defender so that coupled with the tried-and-true Cleric is never a bad option...or Cleric/Ranger Hybrid (with the Ranger portion of the build being of the Twin Strike and Immediate Action variety) is one of the few highly functional hybrid builds. Check with pemerton on that one as one of the PCs in his game runs that.

I've heard iffy things on hybrids, so any input on that from anyone who's used it (or see it) will be good to hear. But, I do plan to encourage a diverse party (role-wise), as I'd like to experiment with the baddies and their group dynamics. But, I doubt I'll enforce it, just strongly encourage it.

Honestly, pretty much the whole book. But if I had to pick a few areas specifically, I'd go with: [SNIP]

Thanks! I'll look that stuff over (even if I suspect I'll just glance at some of it, like the "Cooperative World Building" section). Sounds good, overall. I'll obtain one soon. Thanks again for the help

On the 4-PC party more genrally - sounds fine to me - with an archer and a psion, I'd probably suggest at least one melee-capable PC who can supply healing to self or others (eg a dwarf fighter, a warlord, a melee cleric, a paladin) and then the other PC to taste.

I'll keep these suggestions in mind when we sit down to build the party mechanically. Thanks.

Also, in mentioning archer builds upthread I forgot to mention the archer warlord, which is a STR-based archery build, and could be fun for an orc (given orcs aren't famous for their INT or their CHA, I'd probably make it a STR/WIS orc archer warlord).

Is there a feat that makes it Str-based, or is that power-based? I know there are feats for melee basic attacks, so there might be one for ranged stuff. And, if this is too specific, and I can also sift through Google later if he wants to go that route. Thanks again

 

[pemerton]

Is there a feat that makes it Str-based, or is that power-based?

It's a class feature in Martial Power 2 - a warlord can drop prof in chain and shields, in exchange for (i) prof in military ranged weapons and (ii) being able to use STR for basic ranged attacks. There are then warlord powers - at-will, encounter and (I assume) daily - that are STR-based archery powers.

And now I'm thinking yet another archery options could be a rogue - I'm not sure that a PHB crossbow rogue is very good (others might know) but the Essentials Thief is shortbow proficient, I believe, and might work as a ranged striker.

 

[JamesonCourage]

It's a class feature in Martial Power 2 - a warlord can drop prof in chain and shields, in exchange for (i) prof in military ranged weapons and (ii) being able to use STR for basic ranged attacks. There are then warlord powers - at-will, encounter and (I assume) daily - that are STR-based archery powers.

And now I'm thinking yet another archery options could be a rogue - I'm not sure that a PHB crossbow rogue is very good (others might know) but the Essentials Thief is shortbow proficient, I believe, and might work as a ranged striker.

Thanks for the heads up on it. The gnome Psion seems pretty set on just using the physical books we have, but the other concrete player doesn't mind using whatever's on the character builder (I think). Since we're speculating on his potential archery PC, knowing options for him might help speed up a potentially lengthy character creation process (as there is a lot of stuff to just browse through on the builder if you don't have something in mind).