D&D 4E JamesonCourage Is Starting A 4e Game; Looking For Pointers

[jacktannery]

I might look into this a little bit, but my RPG has a system very similar to skill challenges (X successes before 3 failures to resolve a scene). I'll likely read over the rules so I can get a feel for the nuances of 4e (like the advantage stuff you've mentioned here), but overall I think I can run scenes using the skill challenge system more than adequately (my players like my skill challenge system for my RPG).

The best skill challenge I ever ran was the very first encounter in a module by EN Publishing (you can download the free version herehttp://www.enworld.org/ap/zg01_island_4e_r1.pdf). The encounter is called Find the Dockers (Level 1 Skill Challenge). I recommend you take a look at that - the approach and mathematical background to that challenge was perfectly balanced for my five pcs so using this as a template would work well. It is based loosely on the 'obsidian' skill challenge system I believe.

I plan on making a conscious effort to make the terrain interesting during conflicts (and that means if I have to break my standard simulation to do so, so be it) ... Any tips here?

In my experience 4E combats need lots of things going on so they feel as epic as the time it takes to play them. A good level 1 example (from the same free module above) is the first proper combat encounter:'The sabotage' on pages 12-16. This was a combat that was just made for 4E and its precisely the complex 4E combat system that allows this sort of exciting cinematic scene to be played best. If you want to get the best out of 4E this is how to do it.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Just a heads up, but since you copy-pasted everything, it makes it nearly unreadable for me (since I used the Legacy background, and copy-pasting makes the text black on Legacy's black background).

The best skill challenge I ever ran was the very first encounter in a module by EN Publishing (you can download the free version herehttp://www.enworld.org/ap/zg01_island_4e_r1.pdf). The encounter is called Find the Dockers (Level 1 Skill Challenge). I recommend you take a look at that - the approach and mathematical background to that challenge was perfectly balanced for my five pcs so using this as a template would work well. It is based loosely on the 'obsidian' skill challenge system I believe.

I probably won't end up using the "Obsidian" skill challenge system, nor will I likely include any "you can only use these skills" types of challenges (not sure if the challenge you kindly linked me does that). I actually think I have a pretty good grasp on them, but we'll see. I'll be referencing the document that pemerton (also kindly) left for me. Thanks for pointing that one out, though.

In my experience 4E combats need lots of things going on so they feel as epic as the time it takes to play them. A good level 1 example (from the same free module above) is the first proper combat encounter:'The sabotage' on pages 12-16. This was a combat that was just made for 4E and its precisely the complex 4E combat system that allows this sort of exciting cinematic scene to be played best. If you want to get the best out of 4E this is how to do it.

Now this is something I'll look up. Thank you very much for showing it to me. Sent some XP your way

 

[Storminator]

Great thread so far James - I kept reading faster and faster so I could get to the posting.

Couple of random thoughts I've had as I've read

Leveling: In my game, the players decide when they level. I just salute their decision and level up my monsters. That lets them decide when they need new toys. Worked flawlessly so far.

Minions. Sometimes I'll put out a Standard monster or two and a batch of minions, then pick which one is the Standard at the last possible moment. Someone hits a monster and pushes him over the cliff? He fails his save (no roll) and falls to his death (he was a minion). Let the PCs do their cool cinematic maneuvers and drop people until a dramatic moment needs a monster with some sticking power.

First level fights: Those PCs will be much tougher than other 1st level PCs in your experience, so pick a fair encounter then fight them viciously.

Fight pacing: Usually during the 2nd round, when my monsters come up, I stop and give a summary of the fight so far, and how I see thing standing. Something like: "you burst into the guard room and killed the door guard. His troopers then formed a wall half way thru the room, and they've been holding. Reinforcements are coming, and the first javelin thrower has arrived. If you don't break thru the shield wall you'll be in real trouble." Sometimes the players need to understand how you see things.

Terrain powers/effects: The biggest problem I see with these is subtly presenting that an item might be useful, then it's never touched. Tell folks the cauldron can be pushed over and boiling soup poured on the enemy. Don't be shy, at least until the players grok your work.

Wish lists: Granting treasure is the one part of 4e I find generally unsatisfying. Wish lists don't really help. Getting exactly the obscure neck slot item you need to complete your build doesn't really add a lot of punch to the looting moment. I don't have an answer to this (I'm on my 4th version of handing out treasure . . . ) but keep in mind that it might need tweaking.

Expertise Feats: A common refrain is that if you give out the Expertise feats for free, PCs are able to take more flavorful feats with their slots. IME, they take Improved Defenses (another math fix and no more interesting). Instead, I give them free flavorful feats. Specifically, I give them a free Skill Training per tier, and a free Skill Power per tier. My games are HEAVILY skill focused, so they still feel starved for skills (except the bard . . .)

Story focus: All 4e game elements can easily be recast to match the story elements you want to present. Look at everything thru that lens, and you'll soon run the game you WANT to run, while giving your players the game they want to play. I have no doubt you'll soon master this. When you do, throw your ideas back to us!

Good luck!
PS

 

[Manbearcat]

One other thing right quick as I think it might apply to the way you play.

My D&D has never been as combat intensive as the cultural baseline. My players understand this due to many years gaming with me. On average, I probably run a 2:3 combat:non-combat conflict ratio. So, in a day with 5 encounters, you're looking at only 2 combats. As such, my players inherently understand 3 things about encounter difficulty, respective resource value, and pacing:

1) The combats that I do run are going to be difficult (universally above standard; L + 2 to L + 5 encounter budget).
2) The value of non-combat feats, Rituals, Martial Practices, Skills, Skill Powers, non-combat features (Theme, Class, PP, etc), and non-combat Utility Powers will have a much higher level of potency than their combat analogs with respect to baseline expectations.
3) Non-combat conflicts will be difficult and punitive with respect to Healing Surge ablation. As a group, they're losing a lot of aggregate surges with Failures in Skill Challenges and outright losses in Skill Challenges (where the whole group will lose 1 or 2 surges apiece depending on what the loss reflects). Those surges lost work as a good exchange rate for what they would be losing in an easy combat. Further, they will burn surges for Martial Practices and use surges within the framework of Skill Challenges for specific advantages. This is how I deliver the expectant pacing for the adventuring day.

All told, given what I've read of your depiction of your games, I suspect your ratio will be similar to my own. If that is so, make sure that is clear to these players such that they understand that the investment in non-combat resources is well worth it (possibly moreso). Further, if it is indeed true, consider using 3 as a means to pace the adventuring day such that players feel pressure on their surges. I have another tool I use regularly with the Disease/Condition Track but that is probably best left for when you're comfortable with the ruleset.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]

You've got solid advice here. I have something else: a 4e DM cheat sheet designed for cinematic improvisational play: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?307923-4e-DM-Cheat-Sheet

Hope it comes in handy!

 

[JamesonCourage]

One other thing right quick as I think it might apply to the way you play.

My D&D has never been as combat intensive as the cultural baseline. My players understand this due to many years gaming with me. On average, I probably run a 2:3 combat:non-combat conflict ratio. So, in a day with 5 encounters, you're looking at only 2 combats.

A 2:3 ratio is way more combat than what I'm used to running, but it might look closer to that in this upcoming campaign. We'll have to see what I'm comfortable with.

As such, my players inherently understand 3 things about encounter difficulty, respective resource value, and pacing:

1) The combats that I do run are going to be difficult (universally above standard; L + 2 to L + 5 encounter budget).
2) The value of non-combat feats, Rituals, Martial Practices, Skills, Skill Powers, non-combat features (Theme, Class, PP, etc), and non-combat Utility Powers will have a much higher level of potency than their combat analogs with respect to baseline expectations.
3) Non-combat conflicts will be difficult and punitive with respect to Healing Surge ablation. As a group, they're losing a lot of aggregate surges with Failures in Skill Challenges and outright losses in Skill Challenges (where the whole group will lose 1 or 2 surges apiece depending on what the loss reflects). Those surges lost work as a good exchange rate for what they would be losing in an easy combat. Further, they will burn surges for Martial Practices and use surges within the framework of Skill Challenges for specific advantages. This is how I deliver the expectant pacing for the adventuring day.

Stuff to keep in mind. I do need to remember to burn Healing Surges for failures for certain skill challenges. I'm not used to that form of attrition.

All told, given what I've read of your depiction of your games, I suspect your ratio will be similar to my own. If that is so, make sure that is clear to these players such that they understand that the investment in non-combat resources is well worth it (possibly moreso). Further, if it is indeed true, consider using 3 as a means to pace the adventuring day such that players feel pressure on their surges. I have another tool I use regularly with the Disease/Condition Track but that is probably best left for when you're comfortable with the ruleset.

Yeah, I'll probably ask for more stuff after I give "RAW" 4e a chance. I do want to use certain optional stuff from it (inherent bonuses, upgrading items, MV monsters / math, etc.), but the closer to a "regular" 4e game I get, the happier I think I'll be. I see this as a chance to have a lot of fun with a system I'm a lot less invested in (as compared to my own homebrew RPG), but I do admit I'm excited to try it out and I've even been messing with creating monsters / designing combat scenarios / terrains since I've gotten the DDI account.

Thanks again for the advice on talking to the group about the combat:noncombat ratio. I wouldn't normally do that, but I need to remember that a lot of these potential players are new, and also that it's an entirely new group to me. So that's a useful reminder that I can give them before / as they make their characters.

As you (or anyone) gets more tips, let me know I like replying to them, and apparently an okay number of people here like reading them. Send your friendly 4e posters this way for me, please

 

[JamesonCourage]

Great thread so far James - I kept reading faster and faster so I could get to the posting.

Awesome I like it too, and kinda hope it continues. It's nice to see a thread of people getting along and bein helpful rather than arguments.

Couple of random thoughts I've had as I've read

Leveling: In my game, the players decide when they level. I just salute their decision and level up my monsters. That lets them decide when they need new toys. Worked flawlessly so far.

That's interesting. I think it'd work with my normal group, but I'm not sure about this one. I haven't played with any of them yet, so I don't want to go too far out with new things.

Minions. Sometimes I'll put out a Standard monster or two and a batch of minions, then pick which one is the Standard at the last possible moment. Someone hits a monster and pushes him over the cliff? He fails his save (no roll) and falls to his death (he was a minion). Let the PCs do their cool cinematic maneuvers and drop people until a dramatic moment needs a monster with some sticking power.

Hmm, I can see the pros and cons to this. The upside is I can avoid them using dailies on minions (that was actually the standard!), but at the same time, I wouldn't want to cheat them out of killing a standard by utilizing the terrain (by changing it to a minion and "robbing" them of their clever kill).

First level fights: Those PCs will be much tougher than other 1st level PCs in your experience, so pick a fair encounter then fight them viciously.

I seem to keep getting this bit of advice, so I'll do that. I'm a lot better at tactics than most people, so I'll see how it goes. Of the potential 4 players, I think 2 have never played (but do play Magic: The Gathering), one has played 4e for a few months, and one is an experienced player. I think my tactical skills might surpass their relative newness, especially considering that I can coordinate perfectly with myself, and they probably won't.

But we'll see; it seems like people do keep saying "go at them full force."

Fight pacing: Usually during the 2nd round, when my monsters come up, I stop and give a summary of the fight so far, and how I see thing standing. Something like: "you burst into the guard room and killed the door guard. His troopers then formed a wall half way thru the room, and they've been holding. Reinforcements are coming, and the first javelin thrower has arrived. If you don't break thru the shield wall you'll be in real trouble." Sometimes the players need to understand how you see things.

I could see this helping the new players. I'm not used to new players, so this is potentially very useful advice if they do play. Thanks

Terrain powers/effects: The biggest problem I see with these is subtly presenting that an item might be useful, then it's never touched. Tell folks the cauldron can be pushed over and boiling soup poured on the enemy. Don't be shy, at least until the players grok your work.

Good idea. Get them used to using stuff (and having a fair shot at it working) and I think they'll start to do it on their own.

Wish lists: Granting treasure is the one part of 4e I find generally unsatisfying. Wish lists don't really help. Getting exactly the obscure neck slot item you need to complete your build doesn't really add a lot of punch to the looting moment. I don't have an answer to this (I'm on my 4th version of handing out treasure . . . ) but keep in mind that it might need tweaking.

Yeah, I think I'll try the inherent bonus / upgrading items thing and see how it goes.

Expertise Feats: A common refrain is that if you give out the Expertise feats for free, PCs are able to take more flavorful feats with their slots. IME, they take Improved Defenses (another math fix and no more interesting). Instead, I give them free flavorful feats. Specifically, I give them a free Skill Training per tier, and a free Skill Power per tier. My games are HEAVILY skill focused, so they still feel starved for skills (except the bard . . .)

I tend to love skills, too, but we'll see how it goes with these players. I have a feeling I'll call for skill checks often, and use skill challenges frequently enough (perhaps even more than I'm used to). I'll consider going this route, too. Something to think about.

Honestly, I'm not sure what kind of feats they'll focus on. I think only one player is savvy enough to really powergame, and I think he might attempt to (but I'm not sure yet). I don't think the relatively new players will know enough about 4e to know to go for the Expertise feats or defense feats. Depending on what they end up taking, I'll probably give a free feat one way or another.

Story focus: All 4e game elements can easily be recast to match the story elements you want to present. Look at everything thru that lens, and you'll soon run the game you WANT to run, while giving your players the game they want to play. I have no doubt you'll soon master this. When you do, throw your ideas back to us!

I'll do what I can! I already have some outlines for ideas for what I want, but I'm holding off until I read more about 4e. It'll be interesting to immerse myself a little more in the basic setting assumptions and go from there, but I am sure I'll put my own spin on it. And when I do, I'll try to give you all an update.

Good luck!
PS

Thanks! XP sent your way for the awesome post

 

[JamesonCourage]

@JamesonCourage

You've got solid advice here. I have something else: a 4e DM cheat sheet designed for cinematic improvisational play: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?307923-4e-DM-Cheat-Sheet

Hope it comes in handy!

Ahhhh, I forgot all about this, but I do want it! Thanks for the link, this should come in super handy

(Someone send some XP to Quickleaf for me? I can't yet!)

 

[MichaelSomething]

Watch Batman: The Brave and The Bold. That'll help you understand the right mindset more then anything.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Watch Batman: The Brave and The Bold. That'll help you understand the right mindset more then anything.

The right mindset for what? I've avoided watching the show, for the most part. What about it will help me out?