John Wick 4 (spoilers in tags)

[AnotherGuy]

I suggest you do not read this until you've watched it, and have formed your own opinion.
Please do not let me colour your experience beforehand!!!

So I saw it last night. I'm not going to be popular for this piece since my post is about the negative aspect only. Sorry.
At the outset I obviously greatly enjoyed 1-3 since I was willing to pay monies to experience the cinema experience for the 4th installment.
I'm not going to focus on the good (and there is much good)...others can do that. I'll highlight my issues - and the reason I'm doing so is because I really wanted this to be better than it was as I'm a fan of the franchise.
I've put my spoilers in tags.

IMO the movie required much editing and polishing - it suffered the same fate as Dark Knight Rises. It fell a little flat.

Dialogue. It was, for the most part bland, and specifically our dearest lovable Keanu requires better dialogue given his wooden acting.
Action Scenes. Unnecessarily long in places, read repetitive - as we have had 3 movies to see his skills, by this stage we do not need to see him against every Minion, Mook and Bosses level 1-5. Not unless there is something new to introduce (new setting, new weapons, new combat style, new way of filming)
Exposition. Some of the time saved from the long action sequences above could have been used for further exposition on certain characters which would have been far more enjoyable.
Emotional beats: See post #13*
And lastly, this is a personal preference, more ties into the World of Darkness would have made for a better film.

They lean into his Fortitude, but I feel they do not translate that well enough to the viewer adequately which makes it seem silly in 2 places in particular.

Spoiler: Fortitude

The dude literally falls again, twice from ridiculous heights hitting everything on the way down, with no consequences. Its just more shock and awe for the sake of it, with no fun or interesting take-away

And just some other stupidity - in Parabellum he goes through this entire effort for Safe Passage to avoid the High Table and its reach, only to have him zip across the world in Chapter 4 with absolutely no issues. Which weakens the franchise since they are not consistent in their world-building consequences. And so much of the entire John Wick universe is about consequences...
There are other complaints, but I think the ones I've listed, for me, were the most egregious.

And now we interrupt my complaints for my own take on Mr Nobody.

Spoiler: Nobody

My opinion he is the Bowery King's estranged son. He has Animalism like his father, except he focuses on his dog as opposed to pigeons. He is the antithesis of his dad in that he is Nobody while his father proclaims himself the King. He is black, dresses like a hobo and most telling of all knows much about John Wick from that book, perhaps stolen from his father.

Finally, there is an example of Art imitating Life or Life imitating Art near the beginning, and that is all I'm going to say on that.

I look forward to others thoughts on things/connections I may have missed.

EDIT:It took me a few days to realise what actually frustrated me from the experience. So I edited the above post to include emotional beats which I elaborated more in my later post #13.

 

[Stalker0]

I'll give me review below

Spoiler

Overall....I loved this movie. It was a hell of a ride, and John Wick just John Wicked the hell out of it. I was extremely entertained. Now lets dig in.

The Good

• Use of Armor: I love how armor is actually a thing in this universe, and it actually WORKS. Now that John is handling the upper class enforcers he has to deal with even mooks with bulletproof suits, and having to work around that creates a great dynamic flow for several of the fights. But they don't go overboard, mixing it up so its not all armor all the time now.
• Great fights: For those who saw Matrix 4 and worried that the fights would be stilted affairs....take heart. Keanu (and Keanu's stunt double) are back in form, with lots of neat fights using new styles, new weapons, new awesome.
• Neat camera work: There are a lot of interesting shots in this one, including an overhead shot as John clears out a building that creates an interesting perspective.
• Villain: The villains are solid in this one, from the super smug Marquis, to the former friend that might still be a friend assassin trying to kill him. They get good characterization.
• Lots of neat scenes: they have fights in all sorts of awesome places, my favorite being in the Paris Arc roundabout, creating a crazy fight with cars.
• The scenes are allowed to breathe: In an era where its "go go go" all the time, the movie has the confidence to let some of its scenes slow down and breathe, to build up tension and let the audience enjoy the art that is several of the scenes.

The Bad

• Fights can get repetitive. There is only so many times I need to see John flip a guy and take him out at this point. Some of the fights have a couple mook too many, they could have trimmed a bit off the top and tightened the movie better.
• The "Crush" Problem: John Wick has never been realistic, John has action hero levels of durability. But the movie takes that a biiiit too far in this one. There are times where John gets brutally smashed into a car (like crumbling the car amounts of damage), or even falls from a 2 story height and just brutally slams on the floor (and like Black Widow they don't hide it or soften it with the sound, its bone crushing sound). While they at least have the courtesy of having Wick get stunned for a moment, he ultimately has no lingering injuries from it. Wick has almost been tough, but has never shown this level of durability before.
• The Club Scene: Do they know or don't know? - One oddity in previous John Wick movies, there are several scenes in public where shots are being fired and people don't react at all. But with the mystique of the Wickverse, you could argue everything from hypnosis to the assassins are invisible to normal people, etc. The club scene to me breaks this because on the one hand, you have people literally keep dancing while wick and some others are throwing axes and fighting not 2 feet from them. But then you do have people stop, take note, look concerned, and run away. So which is it..... if Wick assassins are so mystical that no one notices them, fine....I'm here for the ride I'll go with it. If their fights cause a big scene, sure, makes sense. But you need to choose, and it felt really weird to have both happening in the same scene.

The Ending

I am torn on the ending, which maybe is the point. Now a number of people are saying "Wick's alive, he faked his death", and the answer is..... "he did if there's a sequel". But to me its clear the intention is that Wick is dead and this is the end of the John Wick movies. So Wick dies a free man, having challenged the table and won. But on the other....he's dead and the table did ultimately kill him. For all his struggle, John changed nothing....and got a lot of people killed (including friends).

The ultimately solution may come in spinoffs, the Wickverse is just so interesting that it begs for a spin-off series (I know the Continental was supposed to be one but I think that was canned?). In a spinoff where Wick has become legend and his actions spark a revolution against the table.... alright John lives on as a martyr and his quest had true purpose. Otherwise.... you could argue that his quest was meaningless.

 

[Stalker0]

Spoiler: Nobody

My opinion he is the Bowery King's estranged son. He has Animalism like his father, except he focuses on his dog as opposed to pigeons. He is the antithesis of his dad in that he is Nobody while his father proclaims himself the King. He is black, dresses like a hobo and most telling of all knows much about John Wick from that book, perhaps stolen from his father.

I think that's a reasonable idea. The other is this is the son of hally barry's character (her affinity with attack dogs)

 

[briggart]

I really liked the movie, but agree that some of the combat scenes felt overdrawn and that John is displaying Jack Bauer’s levels of durability.

And just some other stupidity - in Parabellum he goes through this entire effort for Safe Passage to avoid the High Table and its reach, only to have him zip across the world in Chapter 4 with absolutely no issues. Which weakens the franchise since they are not consistent in their world-building consequences. And so much of the entire John Wick universe is about consequences...
There are other complaints, but I think the ones I've listed, for me, were the most egregious.

My reading of this was that the events of the previous three movies are starting to shake the foundations of the High Table rule, and more people are willing to look the other way or bend the rules a bit, which in turns allows John to operate more easily and become an even bigger threat. This is hinted a bit in a few lines of dialogue here and there. As the main opponent says: he’s not interested in killing John Wick as much as killing the idea of John Wick, which to me suggests the High Table sees this not as an isolated episode, but as the root of a more systemic issue.

 

[AnotherGuy]

My reading of this was that the events of the previous three movies are starting to shake the foundations of the High Table rule, and more people are willing to look the other way or bend the rules a bit, which in turns allows John to operate more easily and become an even bigger threat. This is hinted a bit in a few lines of dialogue here and there. As the main opponent says: he’s not interested in killing John Wick as much as killing the idea of John Wick, which to me suggests the High Table sees this not as an isolated episode, but as the root of a more systemic issue.

I hear you but they wanted to find him (and that was communicated in the movie)- hence upping the price tag, meeting with Mr Nobody for assistance in discovering where he was (and then later changing the deal) etc.

The "killing the idea of him" still required them them to locate and kill him...after they dealt with Winston.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Dialogue. It was, for the most part bland, and specifically our dearest lovable Keanu requires better dialogue given his wooden acting.

To be fair, the dialogue has always been fairly weak. It's a story about a guy who had his dog killed and goes off to murderf*^$#! an entire mob organization. The most acting he did in the first movie was the scene where he says, "People keep asking me if I'm back, and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinking I'm back!" I don't think the dialogue is going to be the most important element in these movies. I don't know about you guys, but I watch the John Wick movies to watch him kill.

Action Scenes. Unnecessarily long in places, read repetitive - as we have had 3 movies to see his skills, by this stage we do not need to see him against every Minion, Mook and Bosses level 1-5. Not unless there is something new to introduce (new setting, new weapons, new combat style, new way of filming)

Definitely agree, but still like watching him kill a bunch of people on the way to killing the main villain in each movie. I mean, how many different ways can you kill people in a quick paced story? These are not movies to enlighten the viewers. It's a murder in four parts.

They lean into his Fortitude, but I feel they do not translate that well enough to the viewer adequately which makes it seem silly in 2 places in particular.

Spoiler: Fortitude

The dude literally falls again, twice from ridiculous heights hitting everything on the way down, with no consequences. Its just more shock and awe for the sake of it, with no fun or interesting take-away

It would have been a short movie if injuries were more realistic. Pretty sure it would have ended right after they killed his dog and beat him in the first movie. The rest would have been him recovering in a hospital for a while.

Besides his fortitude, I think a bigger exaggeration is his cardio. The guy has cardio for weeks. He goes through fight scenes killing, running, jumping, getting hurt, and just goes on to the next fight scene. I don't know how many of you have ever trained in some fight sport, but do a three-minute round, and if you're not in the right kind of shape for it, your arms feel like they are going to fall off, and you're out of breadth pretty quick if you're going as hard as he does. Not John Wick, though. He has mrder charging cardio. Every time he kills someone, his health bar maxes out. But I think that's part of what makes the movies fun. It's fight scene after fight scene. It's Wick getting hit and hitting back harder. It's Wick falling or getting thrown off a building and surviving. It's Wich getting back up and burning it all to the ground.

It's just glorious fights, shootings, explosions, and cute puppies.

 

[Ryujin]

To be fair, the dialogue has always been fairly weak. It's a story about a guy who had his dog killed and goes off to murderf*^$#! an entire mob organization. The most acting he did in the first movie was the scene where he says, "People keep asking me if I'm back, and I haven't really had an answer. But now, yeah, I'm thinking I'm back!" I don't think the dialogue is going to be the most important element in these movies. I don't know about you guys, but I watch the John Wick movies to watch him kill.


Definitely agree, but still like watching him kill a bunch of people on the way to killing the main villain in each movie. I mean, how many different ways can you kill people in a quick paced story? These are not movies to enlighten the viewers. It's a murder in four parts.


It would have been a short movie if injuries were more realistic. Pretty sure it would have ended right after they killed his dog and beat him in the first movie. The rest would have been him recovering in a hospital for a while.

Besides his fortitude, I think a bigger exaggeration is his cardio. The guy has cardio for weeks. He goes through fight scenes killing, running, jumping, getting hurt, and just goes on to the next fight scene. I don't know how many of you have ever trained in some fight sport, but do a three-minute round, and if you're not in the right kind of shape for it, your arms feel like they are going to fall off, and you're out of breadth pretty quick if you're going as hard as he does. Not John Wick, though. He has mrder charging cardio. Every time he kills someone, his health bar maxes out. But I think that's part of what makes the movies fun. It's fight scene after fight scene. It's Wick getting hit and hitting back harder. It's Wick falling or getting thrown off a building and surviving. It's Wich getting back up and burning it all to the ground.

It's just glorious fights, shootings, explosions, and cute puppies.

Yeah, it's a franchise that's created by an action movie writer, directed by a stuntman, and stars Ted "Theodore" Logan. It ain't Shakespeare. It's about as deep as a '80s Schwarzenegger movie, but with far better world building. It's just plain turn-off-your-brain fun. I watch it for the action and curiosity over what new skill Keanu has had to learn for this one.

 

[Stalker0]

Besides his fortitude, I think a bigger exaggeration is his cardio. The guy has cardio for weeks. He goes through fight scenes killing, running, jumping, getting hurt, and just goes on to the next fight scene. I don't know how many of you have ever trained in some fight sport, but do a three-minute round, and if you're not in the right kind of shape for it, your arms feel like they are going to fall off, and you're out of breadth pretty quick if you're going as hard as he does. Not John Wick, though.

Its always a matter of degrees, and even the slimmest nod to verisimilitude.

For example, in the stair scene, you see John look noticeably tired at several points, and he slows down climbing the stairs as a result. So our hero is "fatigued". Now is that level of fatigue = to what he has gone through, hell no, not even close, no mortal man could do it....but we at least give it the nod (yeah Wick is tired, but he's awesome, so after a quick couple of minutes rest, he's good).

And most of the durability scenes are the same. I mean when Wick gets slammed hard, there is at least a stunned moment (oh that was a big hit, knock the wind of Wick....but he's awesome, so only like a minute).

The fall scenes just take that oooooone step too far, and part of it is always the sound play. If you go rewatch JW 3, the fall at the end is hard, but we at least give it a nod to realism (that awning softened his fall, the fire scape slowed down his fall).... but even then the assumption is "that fall just killed him". If nothing else he doesn't get back up right away. Now again, if that was a real fall, JW would be toast, or at least maimed. But he's awesome, so he's fine.

In JW4 the fall scene is straight down and HARD, the sound is brutal, it sounds like he slams straight into concrete (which considering the scene, he probably does). And JW just gets right back up (though at least he does take a staggered moment before he does to acknowledge the inconvenience).

so you could argue by JW4 we are at full 80's action hero, JW is practically indestructible at this point. Honestly I don't have a problem with that per say, only that he isn't the hero we got in the first movie (who was still ridiculously durable but with a least a nod to realism), so its a tonal change that some might not care for.


At the end of the day, it is more a nitpick. No one goes to see John Wick take a fall and not get back up, we are in action movie territory, and so how much realism you really need is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Want to see this in the theaters with my wife but I first need to show her the first three somehow

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Want to see this in the theaters with my wife but I first need to show her the first three somehow

You’re wife hasn’t seen John Wick 1-3? Pretty sure that’s grounds for a divorce and 8 years hard labor in a Russian prison.