July 07: Monster Manual V, Maps of Adventure

[Shade]

Not really.
MMII was fairly egregious with its use of 'massive amount of HD but low on any worthwhile abilities' undead. Ever since MMIII, undead have finally been done 'right' (editing snafu's aside and grimweirds aside).

You have pointed out some valid flaws...but don't credit the MMIIII for getting better. Let's see...

Armand: Armadillo people...yay.

Avalancher: Why is this a magical beast?

Boneclaw: Essentially a skeleton with variable reach.

Chelicera: Another giant spider...yay.

Dracotaur: Dragon centaurs. Why is this a dragon, not a monstrous humanoid?

Dragon Eel: Another aquatic monstrosity with swallow whole and keen scent.

Drowned: The epitome of "under CRed" to many posters on these boards.

Goatfolk: Uh, goat people.

Grimweird: You already called it out.

Ironclad Mauler: A dire bear with what should have been equipment or a template.

Lhosk: It's a drider...but with a gorilla top!

Nycter: More bat people..yay! Everyone was clamoring for more after the desmodu.

I could go on, but you get the point...

Now if only they'd continue to use Unholy Toughness....

Yeah, they shoulda retconned many of the pre-existing undead, probably in Libris Mortis, but oh well. :\

Well that IS bad design. Unfortunately, FF also suffers from it too, but MMII was released as a sort of 'hey, now that people have high-level campaigns, here's a Monster book that will give you something to challenge your players with!' It was designed more as a high-level threat book than any other WotC monster book and I think, in that respect, it fails.

I'm not arguing that's not bad design. However, the MMII still delivers far more legitimate high-level threats than MMIII and to a far greater extent than MMIV.

 

[BryonD]

What they need to do is take the best ideas from MMIV (expansion of flavor text) and merge them with the design philosophy of FF and the MMIII. Half conversions, half new creatures, and no more huge amounts of space taken up by thematically-linked monsters (dragonspawn anyone?).

Some people will still complain about the new format ('All this flavor text sucks! Give me more monsters, rargh!'), but I see the format change as WotC listening to people who have been saying for years that more flavor is good. They're really damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Maybe. I'm not a big fan of loads of flavor text. To me that is the story and the story is playing the game. I'm not looking to pay WotC to play on my behalf. BUT, padding up the flavor text portion wouldn't be nearly the page count killer that the one-size fits all classed races are. So I'd be much happier with your version.

I don't agree with you that there is really that great a demand for flavor. There has been a vocal minority clamering for years that they want more flavor. But during the D20 boom it was shown over and over again that crunch was what actually sold. I think that now that the boom is well and truly over the crunch demand is greatly diminished, but the flavor demand is less diminshed. So it represents a larger slice of a smaller pie.

But the real issue with MMIV is probably a composite. Some people didn't like the added flavor text. Some people didn't like the flood of spawn. Some people didn't like the classed stuff. People react more strongly to the stuff they dislike. Every change will have some people who dislike it. Make enough changes and the majority of your customers will latch on to something in the mix they didn't like.

 

[Shade]

What they need to do is take the best ideas from MMIV (expansion of flavor text) and merge them with the design philosophy of FF and the MMIII. Half conversions, half new creatures, and no more huge amounts of space taken up by thematically-linked monsters (dragonspawn anyone?).

Some people will still complain about the new format ('All this flavor text sucks! Give me more monsters, rargh!'), but I see the format change as WotC listening to people who have been saying for years that more flavor is good. They're really damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I would LOVE this book and buy it in a heartbeat, and probably sing its praises here at every opportunity.

 

[Harlekin]

Well, if you want to discuss in detail start another thread and I'll join in.
But to breifly summarize, I don't agree that MMIV really accomplished this goal. If you give me a drow ninja statted at levels 2, 4, 8, 12, and 16 then that would be a useful tool. But saying "drow ninja? Here: level 4, one size fits all" is nearly useless.
It was like they had a good idea and implemented it 15% of the way.

I disagree. A drow ninja at level 4 provides me with a CR5 encounter. It makes it very efficient to up-or downgrade to lvls 2-8 so it is a good starting point for a wide range of levels. Furthermore, it provides an iconic (or typical) member of Lolth's stings like the standard entry for a beholder gives me a typical beholder. Sure more powerful versions exist, but that is the version you encounter most often. I would also hope that these stated NPCs are set at a level that makes their chosen class interesting as an opponent (For example first level drow are boring pushovers and just free Exp, but the combination of the ninja abilities and the drow abilities and SR at lvl 4 may start to be interesting)

So far I haven't heard anyone who liked MMIV say they would DISLIKE a book with a wider range of class levels. I have heard plenty of people say they didn't buy MMIV because they disliked the "wasted space". To my mind the people who LIKE stated race/class examples should be in favor of doing things that attract as many sales as possible so that WotC would be finanically motivated to provide more. A good Rogues Gallery book could provide a lot MORE GM support AND avoid alienating people who want actual monsters in their monster manual at the same time. I have a hard time seeing why people are opposed to this win-win option.

Well I expect useful encounters in my MM, and classed characters are useful encounters. I also don't get the wasted space argument. 80% of the monsters in my MMs don't get used. What is the problem if the book contains 20 fewer critters (cutting the weakest 20) and I start using 30% instead of 20%?

 

[Harlekin]

But the real issue with MMIV is probably a composite. Some people didn't like the added flavor text. Some people didn't like the flood of spawn. Some people didn't like the classed stuff. People react more strongly to the stuff they dislike. Every change will have some people who dislike it. Make enough changes and the majority of your customers will latch on to something in the mix they didn't like.

I think you are right, and the effect got magnified by the internet Echo Chamber. Most people seemed to have formed an opinion before reading the book.

 

[Pants]

You have pointed out some valid flaws...but don't credit the MMIIII for getting better. Let's see...

Well, neither is perfect. The MMIII has many stupid creatures. So does the Tome of Horrors 1, 2, and 3 (truly the epitome of quantity over quality), the Monstrous Compendiums from 2e, the 1e Fiend Folio, etc. etc.

Armand: Armadillo people...yay.

Avalancher: Why is this a magical beast?

Chelicera: Another giant spider...yay.

Dracotaur: Dragon centaurs. Why is this a dragon, not a monstrous humanoid?

Dragon Eel: Another aquatic monstrosity with swallow whole and keen scent.

Drowned: The epitome of "under CRed" to many posters on these boards.

Grimweird: You already called it out.

Ironclad Mauler: A dire bear with what should have been equipment or a template.

Lhosk: It's a drider...but with a gorilla top!

Nycter: More bat people..yay! Everyone was clamoring for more after the desmodu.

I could go on, but you get the point...

Yeah, they suck (though I like the nycter more than the desmodu). The drowned is perhaps the strangest design choice I've ever seen. A mid-CR undead with boatloads of HD, Unholy Toughness, AND an aura of drowning? Yikes. I don't consider it to be worse than the adamantine horror, which I can only describe as being truly f-ed up design-wise, but it's really up there.

To the point though, I find the MMIII's 'good' to really outweigh it's 'bad,' which isn't the case for the MMII.

Boneclaw: Essentially a skeleton with variable reach.

Aw, Boneclaws are great!

Goatfolk: Uh, goat people.

Don't forget, the MMII also gave us the Yak-Folk! Thank god for more animal-people!

I'm not arguing that's not bad design. However, the MMII still delivers far more legitimate high-level threats than MMIII and to a far greater extent than MMIV.

Probably, but that was never the stated goal of either the MMIII or the MMIV.
Which is why we need another manual dedicated to high-level beasties.
Hopefully, when/if that happens they learn from the mistakes of the MMII.

 

[BryonD]

I disagree. A drow ninja at level 4 provides me with a CR5 encounter. It makes it very efficient to up-or downgrade to lvls 2-8 so it is a good starting point for a wide range of levels. Furthermore, it provides an iconic (or typical) member of Lolth's stings like the standard entry for a beholder gives me a typical beholder. Sure more powerful versions exist, but that is the version you encounter most often. I would also hope that these stated NPCs are set at a level that makes their chosen class interesting as an opponent (For example first level drow are boring pushovers and just free Exp, but the combination of the ninja abilities and the drow abilities and SR at lvl 4 may start to be interesting)

Well I expect useful encounters in my MM, and classed characters are useful encounters. I also don't get the wasted space argument. 80% of the monsters in my MMs don't get used. What is the problem if the book contains 20 fewer critters (cutting the weakest 20) and I start using 30% instead of 20%?

I'm not arguing with your personal opinion.
I'm suggesting that offering an approach that appeals to a wider range of people would be better.

I disagree with your assessment of the utility and really disagree that a standard beholder is comparable to a "standard" drow ninja. And you haven't changed the "one size fits all" point. But that is all completely beside the larger issue.

 

[BryonD]

You have pointed out some valid flaws...but don't credit the MMIIII for getting better. Let's see...

<snip valid list of examples>

As was argued by MMIV contributers when they book came out and people expressed complaints....
Every MM has some fraction of monsters in it that a given reader won't like. There are several monster in the MM itself I've never used and do not expect to.

These "issue" monsters in the MMII and MMIII are not a problem to me for this reason. I got what I expected out of them. It is just part of the X% of "not useful" stuff.

The reason this argument does not fly for MMIV is MMIV starts out the gate with Y% pre-dedicated to non-value topics as far as I am concerned.
But AFTER that, X% is still NOT USEFUL to me, just as with any other MM.
So MMIII is 100-X% useful, MMIV is (100-Y)% * (100-X)%. That brings MMIV down to "not buy" in my case.

 

[BryonD]

I think you are right, and the effect got magnified by the internet Echo Chamber. Most people seemed to have formed an opinion before reading the book.

Hopefully they will take that into consideration if they want to sell more copies of MMV.

 

[Harlekin]

Hopefully they will take that into consideration if they want to sell more copies of MMV.

I hope they don't, because giving in the conservative voice of the gognards makes it really hard to fundamentally improve the presentation of the game.