D&D 4E Kara-Tur Supplement for 4e - Ideas?

[Royberg]

So, I've recently become enamored by the Forgotten Realms setting of D&D, since I didn't have as much knowledge about it as I would have liked. After doing a lot of reading, what started to really interest me are the lands beyond Faerûne's borders that haven't gotten much love from Wizards of the Coast in recent years. I really got into reading up on the far eastern continent of Kara-Tur that is heavily influenced by Asia and Mesoamerica. I've thought about creating my own Kara-Tur 4e supplement, sort of similar to the Oriental Adventures book that came out for AD&D long before Kara-Tur became implanted in Forgotten Realms.

I was looking for some ideas of what to include. I thought about adding the Wu Jen caster class from 3.5 and making it into another essentials Wizard. Instead of picking daily attack powers, a Wu Jen would get to pick 2 encounter attack powers at levels 1, ,3, 7, etc. and get to choose which one to use on the spot instead of needing to prepare one. This is similar to the Skald Bard in how they do this with daily powers. Maybe I could pseudoresurrect the metamagic feature of 3.5 and allow a Wu Jen to augment a power in a multitude of ways by letting the player choose to expand the radius or range, increasing its damage, or adding a debilitating condition. They could do this an X number of times per day. I'm a huge 3.5 novice, so I'll need to delve deeper into the Wu Jen's class features to find ways of converting it over to 4e. I wouldn't know how their spellbook would work for one... There's also the matter of their connection with spirits and elements of nature, which has them lean towards a secondary power source like Primal. It's similar to how the Berserker is considered both Martial/Primal.

Any feedback someone wants to provide would be cool. Right now the Japanese influence far outweighs any of the other real world cultures, so ideas regarding Chinese, Korean, Aztec, or Mayan weaponry and equipment would be a plus. Here's some notes I wrote down in a word document:

NEW CLASSES:
Wu Jen (Arcane possibly Primal as well: Int; Con or Wis)
Samurai (Martial: Str; Dex or Wis)


CLASS SUPPLEMENT:
new Monastic Discipline for monks
new style feats for martial classes
more powers for the assassin
more powers for the runepriest


NEW RACES:
a reptilian; possibly new dragonborn subrace


WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT:
Katana
Wakazashi
Yumi Bow
Naginata
Kanabo
a stirrup to improve accuracy with bows while mounted
an early firearm
Chuko Nu
a reptilian mount
new armor types/subtypes and masterwork varieties; o-yoroi armor; a +4 or +5 armor type


MAGIC ITEMS:
jade or crystals for healing?

 

[MoutonRustique]

You should try to "ping" [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] - I seem to remember seeing conversion things happening a while back.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=22362]MoutonRustique[/MENTION] That was Al-Qadim actually.
[MENTION=6783269]Royberg[/MENTION] I'm less familiar with Kara-Tur, but if someone was doing a conversion effort, I'd go back to the AD&D Oriental Adventures book with hengeyokai and spirit folk races, adapt the rules for Honor (there may even be some in the DMG already), convert martial arts styles into feats (since in OA/Kara-Tur all classes seemed to have the option to learn martial arts, not just monks), and then peruse the classes for ideas of new sub-classes.

I don't think you need any entirely new classes for an Oriental Adventures / Kara-Tur game. Wu Jen is a wizard. Samurai is a fighter. At most, you could write those up as sub-classes, but in those two cases I'm not even sure that's necessary.

I also don't think you need many new weapons... For example, Out of the Abyss' derro writeup includes what is essentially a chu-ko-nu (repeating crossbow with cartridge loading). The only other weapon not in the game by another name already that I can think of is the kusuri-gama, which might be good to convert.

But my big recommendation would be to refer to your copy of AD&D Oriental Adventures for ideas. That is a phenomenal book.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], I think [MENTION=6783269]Royberg[/MENTION] was talking about a 4e rather than a 5e version.

I think a samurai would be a type of warlord - an archery warlord would cover some of the territory.

A kensei option is missing (outside of the fighter paragon path, which still wears armour) - the unarmoured weapon master. Some sort of monk variant, maybe?

There is not also a proper sohei (temple warrior) or shukenja (wandering, lightly armoured priest) option in 4e as published.

 

[MwaO]

A kensei option is missing (outside of the fighter paragon path, which still wears armour) - the unarmoured weapon master. Some sort of monk variant, maybe?

There is not also a proper sohei (temple warrior) or shukenja (wandering, lightly armoured priest) option in 4e as published.

I think there's a number of classes that work well with those:
Kensei - Avenger or Monk. Monks can wield weapons as implements and don't actually care what the weapon is. Hybrid can work here too for more options - Fighter|Monk as an example can be an extremely effective PC and basically does everything required.

Sohei is basically a Paladin, but Fighter|Cleric hybrid works here too.

Shukenja - just be a Dex/Wis or Int/Wis Cleric or maybe a Shaman.

One of the things to remember is that you can pick item A and refluff it to be B. And if that doesn't go quite far enough, change the mechanics of a feature to suit. Want a Fighter's powers to come from a Divine instead of Martial power source? Done...

 

[Manbearcat]

I think there's a number of classes that work well with those:
Kensei - Avenger or Monk. Monks can wield weapons as implements and don't actually care what the weapon is. Hybrid can work here too for more options - Fighter|Monk as an example can be an extremely effective PC and basically does everything required.

Sohei is basically a Paladin, but Fighter|Cleric hybrid works here too.

Shukenja - just be a Dex/Wis or Int/Wis Cleric or maybe a Shaman.

One of the things to remember is that you can pick item A and refluff it to be B. And if that doesn't go quite far enough, change the mechanics of a feature to suit. Want a Fighter's powers to come from a Divine instead of Martial power source? Done...

Agreed with most all of the above. I would put Sohei base class as either Avenger or Monk however. Outside of that, couple other bits.

Psionic Power had a Soaring Blade Paragon Path for the Monk that was built around swords. Regardless, there is nothing to giving Monks Heavy and Light Blades as implements. I don't even think the great Light Blade feat support applies because I believe they are "weapon attack"-centric. Even if they are not, so be it. That certainly wouldn't overpower the Monk (they could use the feat support).

Dragon issue 404 was specifically built to add in Kara Tur themed campaigns. It had:

1) Samurai Theme
2) Sohei Theme
3) Hordeland Nomad Theme
4) Yakuza Theme (which would serve the role as feudal japan gangster/thug for a daimyo).

I believe it also had an Honor system, which is what you really need to make that setting come alive. If it didn't, I would do some kind of mash-up like Fate compels/BW beliefs. Maybe something akin to the Inspiration system for 5e only with 4e tech. For instance:

3 creeds make up your system of Honor.

- Dispassionately reveal the daimyo's corruption to all.
- Always choose the welfare of the meek over personal gain.
- Remain consistent, humble, but unyielding as the endless tides are when they wash away the despotic power structure.

Any time these are in play in a specific conflict, you can spend a Healing Surge to gain Honor. Honor yields 1d6 that you can add as a No Action (to buff an attack roll, damage roll, defense, saving throw or opposed check - eg grapple) during a combat scene or yields an Advantage in a Skill Challenge.

That should work.

 

[GreenTengu]

You should just do your own thing. Don't worry about updating a setting you aren't the least bit familiar with and have no attachment to. It wasn't very well made and whatever you come up with is certain to be just as flawed, but flawed in a way that is your making rather than the mistakes of someone 30 years ago that you are repeating merely because it was part of history.

Samurai are a social class which does not make for a proper class. It is just way too large of a sector of society. Samurai are probably mostly Fighters, but a Paladin or Bard would fit right into that role. My experience suggests you have a crazy narrow idea of what samurai are as most people in RPG circles who bring them up seem to inevitably have. Go play Sengoku Musou (Samurai Warriors) and Sengoku Basara to get a better idea of the breadth of concept "samurai" can be and why it would fit so poorly into a narrowly defined class.

You don't need any special rules at all. Just because something has a different name or a weapon is used slightly differently doesn't mean it doesn't have an equivalent already.

Katana -> Long sword
Wakazashi - Short sword
Yumi Bow -> Short bow (yeah, its not even a long bow, it is a short bow to be used from horseback)
Naginata -> Halberd
Kanabo -> Great Club
a stirrup to improve accuracy with bows while mounted
an early firearm -> Only way to make these both balanced and usable is to simply use the various crossbow stats exactly as they are.
Chuko Nu -> Heavy Crossbow

Your reptilian race is probably something close to Lizardfolk. There was a company that published stats for Lizardfolk and Gnolls in a book.
There is also probably nothing particular special you need to do with a reptilian mount. If it is generally equivalent to a riding horse found in the PHB. Instead of hoofs they have a bite with the same attack bonus and damage and maybe they are a bit slower with slightly better AC.


Just in general, it seems like you are looking for thing to come up with new rules for instead of simply using the rules that already exist in an intelligent and creative manner to emulate this new world. Just because the description and name of something is slightly different, if it is meant to be a direct equitable equivalent of something else then the numbers on the page don't really need to change.

 

[pemerton]

One of the things to remember is that you can pick item A and refluff it to be B. And if that doesn't go quite far enough, change the mechanics of a feature to suit. Want a Fighter's powers to come from a Divine instead of Martial power source? Done...

My own preference is to interpret the fictional aspects of the mechanics within the constraints of the keywords that are part of them.

I think there's a number of classes that work well with those:
Kensei - Avenger or Monk. Monks can wield weapons as implements and don't actually care what the weapon is. Hybrid can work here too for more options - Fighter|Monk as an example can be an extremely effective PC and basically does everything required.

Sohei is basically a Paladin, but Fighter|Cleric hybrid works here too.

Shukenja - just be a Dex/Wis or Int/Wis Cleric or maybe a Shaman.

Agreed with most all of the above. I would put Sohei base class as either Avenger or Monk however.

I think the Shaman can work well as an "8 million gods" shukenja. For a "path of enlightenment" shukenja some radiant/anti-undead capacity is probably relevant - a hybrid Shaman/Cleric might work, though I haven't tried to work out how mechanically viable that is.

I think a Fighter/Cleric hybrid is probably better for a sohei than a Paladin, which brings a bit of other baggage, like LoH - though now I think about it maybe the Divine Power option for self-buffing in lieu of LoH would work for a sohei.

I have looked at Avenger for building an unarmoured path of enlightenment temple warrior type - it's highly inclined towards a stealth/escape mode that I feel doesn't quite work. Though Avenger would be good for a sohei/ninja, which was an option in the original OA book.

The issue with Monk for kensai is making it worthwhile to spend a feat to take proficiency in a weapon. What might help is a feat (or feats) that are a bit like Crashing Tempest and Pointed Step, that give the monk proficiency in a weapon and allow it to grant a minor buff to Flurry of Blows. (Eg like the sickle one in Dragon 404, but for longsword or bastard sword.)

 

[Manbearcat]

I think the Shaman can work well as an "8 million gods" shukenja. For a "path of enlightenment" shukenja some radiant/anti-undead capacity is probably relevant - a hybrid Shaman/Cleric might work, though I haven't tried to work out how mechanically viable that is.

I think that would do the trick just fine. Alternatively, you could just go straight cleric with the right domain.

I think a Fighter/Cleric hybrid is probably better for a sohei than a Paladin, which brings a bit of other baggage, like LoH - though now I think about it maybe the Divine Power option for self-buffing in lieu of LoH would work for a sohei.

I have looked at Avenger for building an unarmoured path of enlightenment temple warrior type - it's highly inclined towards a stealth/escape mode that I feel doesn't quite work. Though Avenger would be good for a sohei/ninja, which was an option in the original OA book.

I think I may disagree here a bit for the build situation. Some thoughts:

1) The Sohei being the ascetic warrior monk devotee of Buddhist-ish values (genre wobbliness being allowed for here) from a secluded monastery rather begs Psionic or Divine power source (for D&D's genre considerations) to be central.

2) Unarmored, mobile combatant that was a proficient horseman, archer, and proficient in several brands of weaponry (primarily known for the naginata/polearm but swords and sidearms as well).

3) Very general theme of temple defender/warrior on spiritual journey to perfect self.

While other areas support the Sohei theme, the Fighter/Paladin's armor proficiencies (and expectation of leveraging them) rather work against the Sohei, I think.

You remember [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s Elf Avenger Lucann (I believe the name was?). He seemed pretty Sohei-ey to me and was based off an Avenger chassis. Ticked most of those marks up top with the Divine Power Source as central.

I think the Avenger chassis is probably a bit more versatile than you're giving it credit for. While it does have Stealth amongst its Trained Skills and Dex is an optional secondary, the only auto-Trained Skill is Religion (see 1 above). Accordingly, you don't have to be ninja-ey if you don't wish. You can build a Wis/Int (with related knowledge skills and Insight and Perception) and eschew Dex and/or Stealth entirely! Further, you can take the Hordelands Nomad Theme (from the Kara Tur Dragon 404) and get all the horsemanship and archery goodies. Finally, you can take Skill Powers for your Utilities if you don't want the specific Avenger-shtick stuff.

Also, I think the Executioner Assassin (with the Ninja build) or an Exec/Monk Hybrid would be the way to go for a Kara Tur Ninja. You can ramp it up with the Sohei Theme (again DM 404) to get some more of that stuff.

The issue with Monk for kensai is making it worthwhile to spend a feat to take proficiency in a weapon. What might help is a feat (or feats) that are a bit like Crashing Tempest and Pointed Step, that give the monk proficiency in a weapon and allow it to grant a minor buff to Flurry of Blows. (Eg like the sickle one in Dragon 404, but for longsword or bastard sword.)

On this, I think there is a pretty easy answer. Monk with multiclass of Swordmage and either Sohei or Hordeland's Nomad theme. This does a few things:

a) See 1 above. Arcana is the Psionic Power Source skill. If you're going that route for the genre (instead of Religion), then Arcana would seem to be a must. Multi-SM gives you that.

b) Multi-SM gives you implement heavy and light blades. You don't need the weapon attack staff as all of your attacks are implement keyword driven (save your MBA unarmed strike for the very stray OA).

c) Multi-SM gives you SM warding 1/day which goes with the theme.

d) Either of those themes will either focus or broaden your Sohei-eyness depending on if you want the mounted archery stuff or to just focus on the temple guardian/wandering warrior in suit of perfection deal.

Finally, I agree, it would have been good to have more feat support for monks for heavy and light blades augmenting FoB. However, there is an answer to that. The Soaring Blade Paragon Path I mentioned above. Its quite a good Paragon Path with its capstone feature being Con damage bonus to melee attacks with swords and 2d10 extra damage on crits.

 

[Manbearcat]

Couple minutes to see how well 4e pulls off the 1e Shukenja. Turns out the answer is quite well even without using Dragon Mag 404. The details:

1) Pacifist Cleric build w/Knight Hospitaler Theme. Diplomacy, Heal, Insight, Religion, History Trained. These cover the (a) pacifist persuasion, (b) giving aid (spiritual, physical, and instruction) to those in need, (c) well respected/good standing with all castes.

2) Monk multiclass FoB covers the martial art component (Centered is focused on control and opponent manipulation - Slide - so it functionally works with a Wis cleric and fits the "soft art primarily for defense" theme).

3) The Rituals Animal Messenger, Dowsing Rod, Purify Water are all on their 1st level list in 1e and are really mainstays.

4) Light Armor + Dex.

5) Perception for the heightened awareness at all times but especially during meditation, rest etc.

6) Turn Undead for handling evil spirits.

7) Pacifist powers that aid/enlighten allies.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Cleric (Templar)
Cleric Option: Healer's Lore
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Southern Wastes - Secret Order (+2 to Nature)
Theme: Knight Hospitaler

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 11, DEX 14, INT 12, WIS 16, CHA 14

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 11, DEX 14, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 14


AC: 14 Fort: 13 Ref: 14 Will: 17
HP: 23 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +7, Heal +8, History +6, Insight +8, Perception +8, Religion +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +1, Athletics +1, Bluff +2, Dungeoneering +3, Endurance +0, Intimidate +2, Nature +5, Stealth +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +2

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Knight Hospitaler Utility: Shield of Devotion
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Cleric Feature: Divine Fortune
Cleric Feature: Turn Undead
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Monk Feature: Centered Flurry of Blows
Cleric Attack 1: Astral Seal
Cleric Attack 1: Blessing of Knowledge
Cleric Attack 1: Prophetic Guidance
Cleric Attack 1: Beacon of Hope

FEATS
Level 1: Pacifist Healer
Level 1: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Monastic Disciple

ITEMS
Ritual Book
Animal Messenger
Holy Symbol x1
Leather Armor x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
Dowsing Rod
Purify Water
====== End ======