D&D 4E Kara-Tur Supplement for 4e - Ideas?

[Manbearcat]

4e Monks can use any weapon that they're proficient with as an implement.. They don't need to be MC'd into Swordmage to do that...

Monk proficiences are: Club, dagger, monk unarmed strike, quarterstaff, shuriken, sling, spear.

Therefore they don't have implement proficiency in swords. The best way to do that (eg "bang for buck") would be the SM multi-class Blade Initiate feat; (a) Trained Arcana, (b) SM warding 1/day, (c) gain SM implements (any light blade or heavy blade).

That would also give them proficiency with glaive (naginata). Alternatively (for less bang and/or a bit of incoherence thematically), they could take a raw proficiency or the Callidyrr Dragoon theme.

 

[GreenTengu]

Maybe you can apologize for your weirdly disrespectful post to a complete stranger on the internet? I'd be glad to talk about Kara Tur/OA and the way 4e does or does not meet the demands of the thematic material. Conversely, you can put me on ignore. Your choice. But I'm not going to get worked up over serious business Samurai meets D&D stuff enough to go back and forth with angry screeds laced with (strange) personal attacks at internet randos. I've actually had bad stuff happen to me in life to give me a little perspective...

Well, your rant certainly put me in a position.
I apologize for implying that you were ignorant in being an arrogant racists by suggesting that all people for whom the Japanese word for knight may be applied in a setting where all peoples are Japanese, Chinese or Korean by default should fit some super ultra narrowly defined mold based on one individual who would not even be held up as the pinnacle of what a samurai should be. (After all, samurai were modeled after Minamoto Yoshitsune, not Miyamoto Musashi) while certainly never holding western knights remotely to that ultra narrow standard in the western "pulp" base setting.

Now you have really shown me that you were actually informed and CHOOSING to be arrogantly racist by suggesting that all people for whom the Japanese word for knight may be applied in a setting where all peoples are Japanese, Chinese or Korean by default should fit some super ultra narrowly defined mold based on one individual who would not even be held up as the pinnacle of what a samurai should be while certainly never holding western knights remotely to that ultra narrow standard.

Certainly my point was that in Forgotten Realms you do not have to be a guy riding ALWAYS riding horse and ALWAYS using a lance and ALWAYS wearing full platemail to be a knight, nor is there a specific class called "knight" that required you to do such things to qualify as a knight. So use the equivalent Japanese word to pigeon-hole people into a ridiculously narrow concept that utterly failed to remotely match the majority of the people to whom the word is applied just because you think being the "superior" culture, your people can be wide and differentiated while the people from the "inferior" culture must absolutely fit precisely the mold YOU determined for them....

Yeah, I am really sorry that the truth paints you as having a really terrible mentality when it comes to how to treat other cultures when dealing with them. I am also sorry you have suffered personal tragedy, which I suppose you imagine you are alone in all the world from having the experience of. I am also sorry that you think bringing it up wins any argument you engage in. I am also sorry to hear that you fell victim to the addiction of the world's most popular MMORPG and lost yourself so much to it that it has literally become the center of your very existence.

And, I suppose I am also sorry that your point #4 where it seems you finally came to realize precisely what I was getting at and admit that the category of what a "samurai" is goes WAY beyond a lightly armored person who always uses 2 very specific swords no matter the situation demonstrates that I was clearly right in making a point regardless of the manner in which I chose to call out someone pigeon-holing and narrowly defining a culture that was foreign to them.

 

[Balesir]

I apologize for implying that you were ignorant in being an arrogant racists by suggesting that all people for whom the Japanese word for knight may be applied in a setting where all peoples are Japanese, Chinese or Korean by default should fit some super ultra narrowly defined mold based on one individual who would not even be held up as the pinnacle of what a samurai should be. (After all, samurai were modeled after Minamoto Yoshitsune, not Miyamoto Musashi) while certainly never holding western knights remotely to that ultra narrow standard in the western "pulp" base setting.

Couple of points:

1) The imaginary people in the Kara Tur setting are not Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Laotian, Thai or any similar nationality - they are imaginary. As such, they inhabit a mythical world that, for sure, should be handled with respect but does not in any way imply that real, historical people were even remotely like the characters found in myth.

2) Have you come accross the concept of an "example"? At no point that I could see did MBC say that his basis for an example samurai character was the only way to build a samurai character in 4E. That would actually be a significant advantage of using existing 4E classes for a Kara Tur game setting; the character description "samurai" can be used (accurately) as a social descriptor instead of a "character class". You might want to make a Theme for samurai (which might be a neat idea, actually), but a "samurai" could actually be from any of several classes.

Tempest fighter with two swords would, however, capture a common culture meme as an example of a samurai character.

One final point - your initial personal and vituperative attack was not warranted. Your most honourable and graceful course of action at this point would be to apologise for it. Your follow-up was excessive and unnecessarily personal, but somewhat explainable vis MBC's robust response to your original, unwarranted assault.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Meh, he earned an ignore from me, and that's HARD, he's pretty good, lol.

But I agree with both you and MBC, 4e does a great job with the concept of Samurai, just as it does with knight. Neither is a class, either one can be a theme, or the basis of themes covering variations thereof. In some ways I like this better than 5e's answer, where you have to subclass each class to make 'Purple Dragon Knight' or probably 'Samurai', etc. and then its unclear what you do if the base class doesn't really suite your particular character.

 

[Manbearcat]

One final point - your initial personal and vituperative attack was not warranted. Your most honourable and graceful course of action at this point would be to apologise for it. Your follow-up was excessive and unnecessarily personal, but somewhat explainable vis MBC's robust response to your original, unwarranted assault.

Thank you kindly for the defense, mate. Pretty sure the above isn't going to happen though!

Meh, he earned an ignore from me, and that's HARD, he's pretty good, lol.

I have yet to ignore anyone and I probably won't do it with this guy just yet. And agreed, this is some unhinged, ridiculous (and abjectly wrong) motive-hunting/extrapolation/comprehension...that makes for stout trollage. The only way I could possibly respond to that mess would be with both barrels. But I don't care so I'm not going to!

Anyway, climbing back out of that weird rabbit hole and back to reality! How about something topical!

The legendary general, cultural reformer, politician, peasant-samurai...I give you Hideyoshi Toyotomi! Of course this is 1st level. He'd probably need to go Longhand Guardian or Battle Captain as Paragon Path and then Legendary Sovereign as Epic Destiny.

1) This guy has worked his way up in society. He has connections galore, can grease palms and con folks, demands respect and inspires fear.

2) He has a sharp mind, he's gathered a forensic knowledge-base, and can apply it physically.

3) He is a leader of men on and off the battlefield, being formidable in planning a siege, leading the charge with his spear/martial prowess, and when negotiating surrender.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Warlord (Marshal)
Student of the Sword Option: Student of Two-Handed Weapons
Warlord Option: Canny Leader
Commanding Presence Option: Resourceful Presence
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Society - Poor (+2 to Streetwise)
Theme: Samurai

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 12, DEX 10, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 14

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 12, DEX 10, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 14

AC: 16 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 15
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +7, Diplomacy +7, Endurance +5, History +7, Intimidate +7, Streetwise +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics –1, Arcana +2, Bluff +2, Dungeoneering +1, Heal +1, Insight +3, Nature +1, Perception +3, Religion +2, Stealth –1, Thievery –1

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Samurai Utility: Iaijutsu
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Warlord Attack 1: Commander's Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Brash Assault
Warlord Attack 1: Vengeance is Mine
Warlord Attack 1: Orchestrated Offensive

FEATS
Student of the Sword
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)

ITEMS
Greatspear x1
Chainmail x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
====== End ======

 

[MwaO]

Monk proficiences are: Club, dagger, monk unarmed strike, quarterstaff, shuriken, sling, spear.

Therefore they don't have implement proficiency in swords. The best way to do that (eg "bang for buck") would be the SM multi-class Blade Initiate feat; (a) Trained Arcana, (b) SM warding 1/day, (c) gain SM implements (any light blade or heavy blade).

That would also give them proficiency with glaive (naginata). Alternatively (for less bang and/or a bit of incoherence thematically), they could take a raw proficiency or the Callidyrr Dragoon theme.

The problem is that you're basically talking about fluff instead of mechanics. The benefit of being implement proficient with heavy blades without actually being weapon proficient with heavy blades is really just about heavy blade magic items. Especially the glaive proficiency, where both hands would be full with a weapon that the user isn't proficient in - i.e. really bad MBAs.

Just give them additional proficiencies for the Kara-Tur game. It won't make a difference in real play unless we're talking about a heavily optimized game that involves 1-3 specific weapons. And if that's the intent of the game, make them pay for it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Thank you kindly for the defense, mate. Pretty sure the above isn't going to happen though!



I have yet to ignore anyone and I probably won't do it with this guy just yet. And agreed, this is some unhinged, ridiculous (and abjectly wrong) motive-hunting/extrapolation/comprehension...that makes for stout trollage. The only way I could possibly respond to that mess would be with both barrels. But I don't care so I'm not going to!

Anyway, climbing back out of that weird rabbit hole and back to reality! How about something topical!

The legendary general, cultural reformer, politician, peasant-samurai...I give you Hideyoshi Toyotomi! Of course this is 1st level. He'd probably need to go Longhand Guardian or Battle Captain as Paragon Path and then Legendary Sovereign as Epic Destiny.

1) This guy has worked his way up in society. He has connections galore, can grease palms and con folks, demands respect and inspires fear.

2) He has a sharp mind, he's gathered a forensic knowledge-base, and can apply it physically.

3) He is a leader of men on and off the battlefield, being formidable in planning a siege, leading the charge with his spear/martial prowess, and when negotiating surrender.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Warlord (Marshal)
Student of the Sword Option: Student of Two-Handed Weapons
Warlord Option: Canny Leader
Commanding Presence Option: Resourceful Presence
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Society - Poor (+2 to Streetwise)
Theme: Samurai

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 12, DEX 10, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 14

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 12, DEX 10, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 14

AC: 16 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 15
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +7, Diplomacy +7, Endurance +5, History +7, Intimidate +7, Streetwise +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics –1, Arcana +2, Bluff +2, Dungeoneering +1, Heal +1, Insight +3, Nature +1, Perception +3, Religion +2, Stealth –1, Thievery –1

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Samurai Utility: Iaijutsu
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Warlord Attack 1: Commander's Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Brash Assault
Warlord Attack 1: Vengeance is Mine
Warlord Attack 1: Orchestrated Offensive

FEATS
Student of the Sword
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)

ITEMS
Greatspear x1
Chainmail x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
====== End ======

I like it.

 

[Manbearcat]

The problem is that you're basically talking about fluff instead of mechanics. The benefit of being implement proficient with heavy blades without actually being weapon proficient with heavy blades is really just about heavy blade magic items. Especially the glaive proficiency, where both hands would be full with a weapon that the user isn't proficient in - i.e. really bad MBAs.

Just give them additional proficiencies for the Kara-Tur game. It won't make a difference in real play unless we're talking about a heavily optimized game that involves 1-3 specific weapons. And if that's the intent of the game, make them pay for it.

I was just referring to RAW, but I agree completely. There is no reason to not just give them HB and LB proficency (I posted that upthread somewheres) for such a game. The great feat support only applies to weapon attacks, not implement attacks. Its basically just fluff. It could easily be just flat-out granted or folded into a theme. Feat support for HB/LB augmenting FoBs would be appropriate and helpful for the class.

I like it.

Thanks. I thought it covered the thematic material pretty well. I was trying to find a way to get Mounted Combat and archery proficiency, fearless, or + to STs versus fear, and/or bonuses to Will saves. It is tough to get all of that stuff at 1st level. Alternatively, you could go Hordeland's Nomad theme for Mounted Archery/prof bow and/or hybrid Ranger with Warlord (that might be the best option with dual wield + archery + medium armor and you aren't locked into Nature).

Anyway, I think the evidence is pretty strong at this point that 4e's diverse PC build mechanics (+ Honor mechanics from Dragon or your own hack) easily handle OA/KT games without any need for new classes.

 

[GreenTengu]

1) The imaginary people in the Kara Tur setting are not Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Laotian, Thai or any similar nationality - they are imaginary. As such, they inhabit a mythical world that, for sure, should be handled with respect but does not in any way imply that real, historical people were even remotely like the characters found in myth.

If that were the case, there wouldn't be a necessity to pull words from a language that the over-whelming majority of the dialogue, description and character come from. Nor would you feel it was necessary to name them after a real world culture or dress them in relative strict accordance with a real world culture. It may be "imaginary", but it is clearly based on something real.
So when you take a word that is used to describe a group of real life people and then you assign it a stereotype about those people and insist that all people in that world who are described with that word follow that stereotype precisely (or simply assign them massive bonuses for adhering to your stereotype), it becomes very ugly. You might not be able to see it from your point of view, you might have gone into it thinking you were a fan of the culture-- but once you decide to box in their concept so that there isn't nearly the wide breadth of character or personality that you would display if you were doing the similar group from your own culture, and then you stack on top of that really dehumanizing their behavior (even if you hold it up as some concept such as 'honor'), you end up with something really twisted and sick that just fetishizes another culture.

And, honestly? The old setting book of Kara-tur really was lacking any sort of real creativity or unification of the setting. They sort of just took half a dozen east Asian cultures (often the same one from different time periods) and sort of haphazardly tossed them next to one another as separate realms whose politics and development inexplicably didn't affect the others. The setting coming together more as a setting rather than a bunch of disjointed, smashed together places out of time created based on how little the designer knew about them. More creativity would probably be welcome.

But saying all Samurai are universally suicidal iajutsu masters who fight to the death over the slightest perceived insult and kill themselves whenever they make the slightest mistake (not what was written, but the fact that Rokugan was what the 3rd edition version was based on, a well supported slippery slop) is not a good place to start from. Particularly since they are meant to be a common, functional part of society within the setting.

2) Have you come accross the concept of an "example"? At no point that I could see did MBC say that his basis for an example samurai character was the only way to build a samurai character in 4E. That would actually be a significant advantage of using existing 4E classes for a Kara Tur game setting; the character description "samurai" can be used (accurately) as a social descriptor instead of a "character class". You might want to make a Theme for samurai (which might be a neat idea, actually), but a "samurai" could actually be from any of several classes.
Tempest fighter with two swords would, however, capture a common culture meme as an example of a samurai character.

Except that what I originally quoted was him writing that samurai were lightly armored duelists who wielded two swords.

And after slowly coming to realize what an utter insulting cock-up settings like Rokugan really are at their core, I find myself driven to speak up when I see people going down the exact same road.

Really, what can a samurai be?
Well, a warrior who is particularly adherent to a code of behavior and their fanatical adherence to that code inspires those around them to greatness, allows them to charge straight into the face of danger and deliver devastating single strikes to their enemies. i.e. a Paladin.
Or they are brilliant-minded tacticians and inspirers of legions of men who lead them into battle, their force being represented by their ability to lead their legion of men rather than the force of their own two hands and outside battle focus on skills to manage and run the territory they have been assigned and navigate the hazards of the court and public relations. I.e. a Warlord.
Or maybe they are heavily armored tanks that can stomp their way through the battlefield, masters of arms who cannot be bested and will use whatever means are necessary to achieve their missions. i.e. a Fighter.
Or they are fast, mobile but still somewhat armored warrior who fights from horseback with unparalleled skill with a bow and can ambidextrously use a pair of swords in close combat. i.e. a Ranger.
Or maybe they are highly cultured poets and artists for whom swordplay is more a work of art than simply brute force and whose brilliant performances and awe-striking appearance and words makes them a natural leader inspiring those by their side to their best. i.e. a Bard.

And, yes, the guy who wears no armor and focuses solely on their skill with a sword and live and die solely by their ability to prove their claims that they are the greatest. They devote themselves solely to mastering their technique and are constantly seeking out new challenges and opponents. i.e. the Kensai. (Which, fair enough, may need to be its own class) Of course, they are likely to be moneyless travelers who work for no one and thus Ronin and not true samurai. All those ideas one would build about being a "samurai" being this iajutsu dueling thing is solely the kensai. No other version is quite as concerned about that. Maybe the Paladin-archetype a bit, but "Smite" is a pretty good stand-in for that sort of sword style.
Certainly the two-sword wielders aren't worried about striking first and hardest or else they wouldn't be using two swords and most others would be quite content to shoot you with an arrow, run you through with a polearm, trample you with a horse, shoot you with a musket or what have you. Even trap you and your whole family inside a wooden fortress and light it on fire.

One final point - your initial personal and vituperative attack was not warranted. Your most honourable and graceful course of action at this point would be to apologise for it. Your follow-up was excessive and unnecessarily personal, but somewhat explainable vis MBC's robust response to your original, unwarranted assault.

The more posts I see, the more I wonder if we really weren't on the same page and perhaps I did jump on something I saw as something it wasn't meant to be.
If the idea wasn't to pigeon-hole the Japanese culture and use the term "samurai" and stereotypes about it in western media to artificially limit the range of humanity and character concepts allowed in the setting, then I apologize for jumping all over it unnecessarily so.

 

[pemerton]

So when you take a word that is used to describe a group of real life people and then you assign it a stereotype about those people and insist that all people in that world who are described with that word follow that stereotype precisely (or simply assign them massive bonuses for adhering to your stereotype), it becomes very ugly.

<snip>

saying all Samurai are universally suicidal iajutsu masters who fight to the death over the slightest perceived insult and kill themselves whenever they make the slightest mistake (not what was written, but the fact that Rokugan was what the 3rd edition version was based on, a well supported slippery slop) is not a good place to start from.

I've read the whole thread. No one asserted these things that I have quoted.

I don't think the issue of suicide (ritual or otherwise) has even been mentioned except by you. And I think you are the only poster to mention Rokugan - the thread itself being about Kara-Tur, and having evolved into a general discussion of how the AD&D Oriental Adventures classes might be realised in 4e.

If one wishes to build a samurai as a STR/DEX fighter, who is nimble, quick, and somewhat capable with a bow - not an absurd model of a samurai, it seems to me - then [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s suggestion of a "tempest" fighter seems reasonable. Upthread I suggested an archer warlord as another way of going. Like the tempest option, this is also going to push the character towards lighter armours. But because the character is therefore likely to be built as STR/INT - in order to have a reasonable AC - the archer warlord samurai will be reasonably capable in History and Religion, which would suit those who want to play a scholarly sort of samurai. This is an aspect of the samurai archetype that the original OA tended to emphasise (via its proficiency rules).