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D&D 4E Kara-Tur Supplement for 4e - Ideas?

I'm not sure what the CHA/WIS part is about

Sorry, should have been more explicit. I was referring to the secondary attribute of the build. The Rogue Duelist/Swashbuckler (Dragon 381 is the big support) stuff keys off Cha as secondary and typically assumes the Artful Dodge feature.

For instance:

[sblock]Effect: You gain a power bonus to AC and Reflex equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.
Artful Dodger: The defense bonus equals 2 + your Charisma modifier.[/sblock]

You would need to work outside of RAW and sub Wis in for Charisma for a faithful 1e Kensai (which was Dex/Wis). For me personally? I'm A-OK with that at my home game (as I'm sure you know). But the point of the exercise (for me at least) was to try to give the original poster outlets within the RAW 4e tools to play OA/Kara Tur (which I think it can do). That seemed to have been important to them as they were looking for outright new classes/weapons to support OA/Kara Tur rather than playing with the existing means.

Frankly I'd just wear the leather armor, its not really out of character, though strictly speaking it diverges slightly from the OA class parameters its not like its wildly out of line (and 'kensei' really might as well be wearing some light armor, who cares?). You could fluff it as some heavy gloves and a face guard/light helmet if you want.

Yup, I have no problem with that. But I'm not so sure the original poster would be ok with that (at least it would be odd to be ok with that but feel its necessary to come up with all new classes/items/PC build tools to support alternative genre archetypes).
 

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Sorry, should have been more explicit. I was referring to the secondary attribute of the build. The Rogue Duelist/Swashbuckler (Dragon 381 is the big support) stuff keys off Cha as secondary and typically assumes the Artful Dodge feature.

For instance:

[sblock]Effect: You gain a power bonus to AC and Reflex equal to your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.
Artful Dodger: The defense bonus equals 2 + your Charisma modifier.[/sblock]

You would need to work outside of RAW and sub Wis in for Charisma for a faithful 1e Kensai (which was Dex/Wis). For me personally? I'm A-OK with that at my home game (as I'm sure you know). But the point of the exercise (for me at least) was to try to give the original poster outlets within the RAW 4e tools to play OA/Kara Tur (which I think it can do). That seemed to have been important to them as they were looking for outright new classes/weapons to support OA/Kara Tur rather than playing with the existing means.



Yup, I have no problem with that. But I'm not so sure the original poster would be ok with that (at least it would be odd to be ok with that but feel its necessary to come up with all new classes/items/PC build tools to support alternative genre archetypes).

Right, presumably you'd have to grab Unarmored Agility, or Hybrid Swordmage. An Artful Dodger in Cloth isn't too bad, even without UA, but there is a small hit.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Not because I'm an ignorant (elitist?) Floridian who chose whatever stupid handle for serious business D&D foruming that I chose.
I didn't even know there were elitist Floridians. The other 49 states usually mock Florida as the place where are all the weird stuff happens. :)
 

I didn't even know there were elitist Floridians. The other 49 states usually mock Florida as the place where are all the weird stuff happens. :)

All I remember about Florida is my Grandfather's hick 2nd wife that he married down there. She was a diner waitress, wore WAY too much makeup and had that 70's old lady hair. lol. Then there was the snake gun. She kept a double barrel 12 gauge loaded in the pantry, not even a safety on the thing. My Dad kept telling her, "You're going to set that thing off" and sure enough one day it fell over in the closet, BOOM! 50 cans of okra and creamed corn blasted to bits. Never saw a bigger mess in my life. He just laughed and laughed.

Not that she was a bad or stupid woman, but she was so so Florida hick.
 

I didn't even know there were elitist Floridians. The other 49 states usually mock Florida as the place where are all the weird stuff happens. :)

All I remember about Florida is my Grandfather's hick 2nd wife that he married down there. She was a diner waitress, wore WAY too much makeup and had that 70's old lady hair. lol. Then there was the snake gun. She kept a double barrel 12 gauge loaded in the pantry, not even a safety on the thing. My Dad kept telling her, "You're going to set that thing off" and sure enough one day it fell over in the closet, BOOM! 50 cans of okra and creamed corn blasted to bits. Never saw a bigger mess in my life. He just laughed and laughed.

Not that she was a bad or stupid woman, but she was so so Florida hick.

Ya see that was the first indicator that he was not interacting with the real world, but rather merely emoting based off a mental framework that mispercieves slight, triggering manufactured, unhinged outrage (probably many times through the years) when this topic comes up.

I mean elitist Floridians? If I was going to go with the "attack random dude for being Floridian" angle, I would definitely start with something like:

- Why don't you go drop off your male and female giant anacondas that ate your pets (surprise?) in The Everglades and trigger a habitat crisis!

- Why don't you get high on meth and burn down a thousand year old tree?

- Why don't you fake a car accident and you, your corrupt lawyer, and fake durable medical supplier/physical therapist can destroy our insurance system (which feeds back into the rest of the nation) for a measly 10 K Personal Injury Protection limit.

- Why don't you channel all of your (constrained revenue) into nothing but refurbishing beaches so that you don't have the infrastructure to support the ridiculously growing populous? Speaking of that infrastructure...

- Why don't you take 20 years for a road project that would take Texas 5 months?

- Why don't you go root for your non-local team at a home game for the local team (because you certainly aren't from around here and why would you possibly assimilate into the local culture and root for the hometown? /gasp!)?

- Why don't you drive down the road with a large flat screen TV (loosely) tied to the roof and a huge upright fridge in the bed of your truck? But make sure you do it at around 60 MPH. And when the TV flies off the roof and the upright fridge crashes over, smashes the bed of your truck (damaging your suspension) and slides out into the roadway causing an accident...make sure you get out of the car with a really astonished, stupid redneck look on your face. That is the key part.

- Oh...and why don't you shoot an outrageous number of dangerous fireworks out of the palm of your hand, blow off multiple digits....but make DAMN SURE you do it RIGHT BEFORE you sign your $14 M franchise tag or long term NFL contract! Good job guy!
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
- Why don't you go root for your non-local team at a home game for the local team (because you certainly aren't from around here and why would you possibly assimilate into the local culture and root for the hometown? /gasp!)?
As a New Jersey resident, I apologize for sending no small number of those people your way. :)
 


pemerton

Legend
Being on the other side of the world, I'll refrain from the Florida jokes. (Here it's called Queensland.)

But back on topic, and prompted by a comment a little bit upthread - what does optimisation look like in 4e Oriental Adventures? I'll start answering my question with some musings on the GM side, thinking about encounter/scenario design.
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s ranger/monk hybrid kensei is built to have a single-foe duelling capability. But dueling in 4e has its own limits as a part of the game. I know that there are 4e players who post here who have had success with duelling/arena-style encounters, but I've never had great success in making them work, precisely because they tend not to exploit the synergy/mobility elements of 4e's combat mechanics. (Contrast, say, duelling in RM or BW which can be quite dramatic, because of the choices between attacking and active defence that have to be made, and create the requisite suspense and sense of danger.)

When I've looked at 4e Dark Sun, I've wondered whether there's enough there to support 30 levels of play, in the sense that 30 levels consumes a lot of story material and I don't know that DS has the requisite depth and breadth (contrast default 4e, which in my own experience has a terrific set-up for this, with the way it integrates the planes and cosmology through all the levels, but has the fictional depth to allow the growth/expansion that are demanded by paragon and then epic tier play).

I wonder if classic OA might be a bit like DS in this respect. I have run an OA game that exhibited the sort of cosmological integration combined with expansion that is found in default 4e (and over 11 years the game made it to RM 27th level), but by the end it was OA only in flavour (samurai, Celestial Bureaucracy etc) but it didn't feel very much like Hero, Tai Chi Master or a Kurosawa film. It felt a lot like my 30th level 4e game is feeling at the moment!
 

Being on the other side of the world, I'll refrain from the Florida jokes. (Here it's called Queensland.)

I've heard Florida compared to Queensland before so I'm fairly certain its apropos. It is really a much more broad cornucopia of insanity though, not just redneck shenanigans. Something for everybody I suppose!

But back on topic, and prompted by a comment a little bit upthread - what does optimisation look like in 4e Oriental Adventures? I'll start answering my question with some musings on the GM side, thinking about encounter/scenario design.

@Manbearcat's ranger/monk hybrid kensei is built to have a single-foe duelling capability.

I think the "duelist" builds fulfill an interesting (robust tactically and in terms of being an asset) role within the framework of 4e's team-centric combat engine. Effectively it is that of the "offtank". While the primary Defender is locking down the majority of the enemies on the battlefield (or the most dangerous one), the "offtank" is able to manage one (or a couple) of enemies with their above average survivability, skirmish capacities, and modicum of control. They are universally Strikers (or the Bladesinger - Striker in all but name - and Swarm Druid - capable of big melee control and surviability) so their high damage capabilities plus perhaps a little focus fire from their friends will eliminate "off-targets" quickly. The 4e classes that can fill that niche are:

Avenger
Barbarian
Bladelock (with heavy armor and the right dailies/feats)
Bladesinger
Druid (Swarm)
Monk
Ranger (must have heavy armor or melee dex build + other resources devoted to survivability)
Rogue (Duelist build)
Slayer

The Kensai would fill that same role.

But dueling in 4e has its own limits as a part of the game. I know that there are 4e players who post here who have had success with duelling/arena-style encounters, but I've never had great success in making them work, precisely because they tend not to exploit the synergy/mobility elements of 4e's combat mechanics. (Contrast, say, duelling in RM or BW which can be quite dramatic, because of the choices between attacking and active defence that have to be made, and create the requisite suspense and sense of danger.)

Little bit of an aside, but seeing as my last game featured all 3 of the above as my 3 PCs, I had to find ways for 4e to support the paradigm you're speaking of. Broadly speaking, the best way it is handled is through:

a) A variety of Hindering Terrain on the battlefield that imposes one of the following conditions (Vuln 3/5/7 (save ends), - 2 defenses (save ends), - 2 to hit (save ends), give up CA (save ends). These effects must be transparent to the players (as they would be to actors in the fiction) so their agency isn't inhibited (and thus the whole exercise rendered pointless).

b) The duelists having both skirmishing capabilities and the requisite forced movement capacity to leverage (a) above.

c) Robust stunting tools (which 4e has) for the PC builds that don't forced movement amongst their suite of resources. Ath (str) builds for strongmen. Acr (dex) builds for the nimble/speedy. Bluff (Cha) for the swashbucklers. End (Con) for toughmen. Hist (Int) for the masters of technique/form. Ins (Wis) for the masters of reading opponents. Those all work as the skill catalysts for imposing forced movement stunts on enemies (and getting damage out of the rest of the damage expression budget) during duels.

Beyond that, a good way to handle this is through fortune cards drawn at the end of each round (which dynamically change the situation such as move both participants so many squares on the battlefield) or hacking some mechanic whereby the person who has the upper hand has access to an Escalation/Momentum Die (that doesn't "death spiral" the whole thing).

However, I do agree that duelist rules with less abstract resolution mechanics are typically superior for satisfactorily resolving the trope. Or at least there needs to be rules whereby (a) dynamic, genre-coherent, duel-centered complications can occur and (b) the participants must be steeped in agency to affect the outcome of said duel (by inhabiting the OODA loop of their duelist to as large a degree as possible. I've had several fantastic duels in DW, and those mechanics are quite different from RM and BW!

But dueling in 4e has its own limits as a part of the game. I know that there are When I've looked at 4e Dark Sun, I've wondered whether there's enough there to support 30 levels of play, in the sense that 30 levels consumes a lot of story material and I don't know that DS has the requisite depth and breadth (contrast default 4e, which in my own experience has a terrific set-up for this, with the way it integrates the planes and cosmology through all the levels, but has the fictional depth to allow the growth/expansion that are demanded by paragon and then epic tier play).

I wonder if classic OA might be a bit like DS in this respect. I have run an OA game that exhibited the sort of cosmological integration combined with expansion that is found in default 4e (and over 11 years the game made it to RM 27th level), but by the end it was OA only in flavour (samurai, Celestial Bureaucracy etc) but it didn't feel very much like Hero, Tai Chi Master or a Kurosawa film. It felt a lot like my 30th level 4e game is feeling at the moment!

This is an interesting point and I suspect that your ruminations are likely accurate. 4e's genre elements are broad and deep (thus supporting 3 full tiers of play). Like Dark Sun, OA's band would seem a bit more narrow.

EDIT - fixed some stuff that I mangled in my haste.
 
Last edited:

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] - I'm flying off this evening (Australia time) on a 6-week family holiday. So no posting from me for a while. Best wishes of the season to you and yours!
 

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