Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Wait. You don't call my position garbage, and then claim you don't need to address it. You do in fact need to address it if you want to throw that drive-by bash out there. I took the time to make a thoughtful argument on that point, and you just waiving your hand isn't persuasive of anything concerning that point.

Wait, now my argument is dumb because you disagree with it (without much in the way of an explanation for why you disagree or an attempt to inform or persuade anyone of why your disagreement is wiser)?
Because
To the first part: if it is indeed alien and therefore incomprehensible, then our puny human morality is inapplicable. We can't say an incomprehensible being is evil, because it's incomprehensible! To say that we know such a thing is indeed evil, would be to say that it is actually compreensible by our puny human morality. That's why it's a garbage argument. You can't on one hand saying X is incomprehensible and then on the other hand say X is also evil. The latter means you comprehend it. The former means you don't.

To the second part: Because it's an extension of the first argument. "We here in Reality Land can't comprehend what Fantasy Land is like!"...but, you just made an argument of how things in Fantasy Land may be. Which is? Can we comprehend Fantasy Land or can't we?

These are bad arguments that tend to be made when *thing in question* has a fundamental flaw that is difficult to explain away as anything other than a fundamental flaw. So arguments like "Well we must just not be able to understand how this flaw is actually a feature!" Or...maybe Occams Razor is right once again, and the simplest answer must be the truth: this thing is flawed.

It can be both. It's actions warrant your action in return, and it's biology can inform what action you take to stop it. If it is born to always do evil acts, then you know redeeming it isn't an option for your responsive action. One informs the other.
To this I argue: silence is consent. Doing nothing is just as bad as supporting it. You knew it would do evil, eventually and did nothing.

That's the problem with the "born evil" problem with D&D. If it's evil yet at the moment not taking evil actions and you know that once it takes action, the only actions it will take are evil ones, then the only good thing to do is to prevent it. Otherwise, by allowing evil to survive and take actions in the future, you have allowed evil to happen.

This is demonstrated with Epicurus's "God trilemma", see also: The Problem of Evil.
Granted, the heros may not be all-powerful, but if a good character does not take an active role in stopping evil, they have rather directly too, allowed evil to happen.

This generates the "killing baby orcs is a good thing" problem whereby an otherwise lawful good character is faced with the "problem of evil" and must choose to either kill babies, who must by their evil nature take evil actions, or stop being considered a good person because they allowed evil to flourish.

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Bringing this back to the OP, this is one of the precise reasons that games like D&D view killing as a primary solution to conflict as opposed to other games. Because quite literally, D&D and its descendants have set up such a terrible dichotomy of "Either you're good and you kill orcs, or you're allowing evil to flourish." There really is no other choice than to kill.
 

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Sunseeker

Guest
It is because they like the trope of cosmic forces of good and evil.
Sure, but aren't there better ways to play out this trope? Doesn't the trope become fuller, deeper, more engaging when the enemy is not "born evil" but when they have chosen to follow an evil god or do evil deeds because they are selfish, short-sighted, hateful or just otherwise jerks?

I don't think it says anything one way or the other about the person who made the setting (or the person playing it). For all you know, they view it as a metaphor for real world evil (and as a visual metaphor, holy knight cutting through swatch of demonic and/or goblinoid hordes is pretty engaging).
Art speaks volumes about the artist. What you create says something about you. What they create says something about them. It does say something. It may not say what I think it says or what you think it says, but it does say something. All creations do.

At a certain point we do have to separate ourselves from the things we are playing at the table. I remember having a lot of difficulty as a kid playing in settings with multiple gods I didn't acknowledge, because I was religious (and the notion that God didn't exist in the setting troubled me). But I realized the setting was a thought experiment and fantasy. I feel like the sort of argument emerging here is the same one I heard in the 80s when people were accusing D&D of being satanic (the fantasy becomes to real, or the fantasy reveals the darkness within).
The fact that something is a thought experiment does not by its nature, make it equal to all other thought experiments. This is a problem many people have in real life, that because they think something it is equal to any thoughts anyone else has. I hate to suggest that there may indeed be forms of badwrongfun, but I raise some serious eyebrows and some of the ways people talk about games of "kill the orc". I find it strange that people can "have fun" in games that are about little more than killing as many other humanoids (of the wrong color of course) as possible. The fact that many fantasy races stem from stereotypes, exaggerations or mockeries of real people makes me raise eyebrows even further. Whether these people realize it or not, they are "having fun" essentially killing real people who are wearing a funny rubber mask, a rubber mask, I might add, placed on that real person by someone with a decidedly poor or warped view of those real people.

Think of it this way: are you bothered by horror movies that have monsters that are there to essentially kill and be killed? It isn't that different. Lots of horror films feature monsters the heroes have to destroy because they are the physical embodiment of evil.
I think there's a matter of poor comparisons here. Unique evil individuals are not entire evil races who presumably live, love, and make evil babies. Freddy, for example in the original lore, started out as a human serial killer (of children no less!), before apparently ascending to demonhood. (something D&D actually replicates with how demons work!) Jason Voorhees, for example is a perfectly human human (except in some cases where he comes back from the dead). Pennywise is an extra-dimensional fundamental element of chaos of death, he's not so much evil as an element of reality. Pinhead is a being who found ascension through BDSM. These two fall closer under Mistwell's "incomprehensible" definition rather than "evil".

I'm not a fan of horror movies, so that's about all that comes to mind. I think you'll find that, upon closer analysis, most horror movies feature either "really evil humans", or "incomprehensible aliens". Sometimes the former warped by the latter (Event Horizon, Heavy Metal, Time Bandits).
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
Isn't it possible you find it troubling because you're anthropomorphizing an alien creature? We don't live in a world where Gods walk on the planet and literally create new creatures from magic. Their genetics, along with much of their physics, literally doesn't work like ours does. We humans are not born with an alignment - but a fantasy setting can posit, as part of the setting assumptions, that some alien creatures are born with an alignment. Much like they're born with magic.

Allowing for that setting doesn't speak to anything troubling about our own real world and real world genetics - nor is it intended to. It's not an allegory for our world.

Now I am all for scenarios that allow for alternative ways to resolve the challenge, like you mention.

But there are scenarios where that's not an option. When the orcs are raiding an innocent village under the authority of one-eyed Gruumsh cleric taskmasters, raping and pillaging and burning in the name of their deity, where challenging their chief or building the biggest bomb or tricking them or using diplomacy may not be an option that can work in time to save the people being slaughtered. Sometimes, the only realistic option is fighting them, if you want to save innocent lives.

And I don't agree with the claim that scenario is an inherent problem with fantasy gaming. That is a legitimate scenario, along with ones that don't have to be resolved that way.

But are they alien and am I anthropomorphizing? I'm talking solely about humanoids. Who are basically humans who look different and have a different culture. They have roughly the same mental and physical capabilities as humans. And "free will" is something that has been pivotal as a defining human characteristic. I'd go so far and apply it to humanoids as well. Not outsiders (though there might be exceptions). Not necessarily monsters.

If you do want to have monstrous orcs, then fine. Make them a monster type. Make them Gruumsh's puppets. But in current D&D, they are humanoid. And even if many tribes might utiliize a "might makes right" approach and loot, pillage and kill nearby "weaker people", that doesn't mean they have no choice. Or that this should be true in every setting. But even that's culture, not inevitable genetics.

I don't advocate against settings where everyone but the PCs are monstrous and evil. There is legitimate fun in such settings. What I do speak against is the idea that modern, standard D&D does or should incorporate such an approach for its humanoid people or make it "standard".
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
Tolkien's Goblins literally are tainted from the get go. There's no "good goblin" - they're all born bewed to unfightable desires to evil deeds. His description includes, "... cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted."

They are born bound to the forces of Shadow, not just by culture, but nature itself. They are also not free willed, unlike the Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Istari, and Ents.

Sure, their ancestors include an elf... but that elf was turned and bound to evil, and that evil bred with itself, to make a race so inherently vile that they're irredeemable.


D&D softened that with the alignment system - originally only one axis - and allowed one step off.

You're right when it comes to Tolkien. But I'm not discussing middle-earth as a setting. I'm talking about standard D&D in its recent iterations.

(also, Tolkien's goblins are not necessarily what I'd call humanoid. And I guess we should get over beating big T's cow to death again and again. He wrote his books ~70 years ago. They greatly influenced fantasy. But they are not the holy grail that anchors us in the past.)
 

Sadras

Legend
And modern science is also continually trying to prove that culture, peers and parents play a role in developing personality traits, mindsets and behaviour patterns.

Yes, that is true too.

(Gender preferences are a different kind of animal and I wouldn't put them into the equation when discussing morals as it is really irrelevant here)

No harm meant by it, just merely an indication that genes might explain more about beings.

Influencing or playing a role is one thing. Being quasi the only deterministic factor on morale is the other. "being born evil" is simply a no-go for me when it comes to humanoid creatures. You can make some mortal peoples avatars or puppets of gods, sure. But they would surely lose the "humanoid" status for me and become "godlings" or "outsiders".

I would think you would at least accept a handful or even 1 race of humanoids as being born with an evil bent due to their creator's influence. I can agree that not all humanoids should be lumped in the same basket and my table have definitely explored such thinking in our roleplaying games. One example that springs to mind is where a PC druid adopted some young gnolls (after their parents had been slain) to raise them good. He then retired the character, leaving it up for the DM to decide on his success.

I imagine common folk describe goblinoids, orcs and the rest as monsters and in most fantasy settings these creatures have been in conflict with the good races for whatever reason, so I see the Monsters Handbook written from the viewpoint of the good races and thus such humanoids (orcs, goblins etc) have been painted with the broad brush of Evil.

Given what we know of goblinoid,orc...etc culture Evil is the best descriptor. Don't you?
I'm not saying they cannot be good, but when your Elven PC encounters an orc or a halfling in the wild - who will most likely be your enemy?
 
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In the RPGs we can kill lots of wolves, but we don't kill puppies, do we? Our characters fights against orc, hobgoblins and other hostil humanoid, but we don't hurt unarmed civilians humanoids (women and children). If the DM offers clues about the conflict could be fixed by means of diplomacy and social skills, many players try peaceful ways. Do you remember the Pomira (the horde) from Xena: Warrior Princess? There were the closest thing to the orcs in Xenaverse, but they weren't really evil.

In the Bible the Amalekites were archienemies of Israel, and they suffered anathem, a genocide ordered by God, but they aren't innocent at all. Human sacrifices weren't rare among the neighbours of Israel.

* In my own homebrew world the humanoids aren't totally evil, but all groups and factions need at least share a common allegenciance to survive, because "in the cold winter the lone wolf dies but the pack survives". This allows a kobold could be a trader in a normal city, or a goblin town who pay taxes to the king.
 

aramis erak

Legend
You're right when it comes to Tolkien. But I'm not discussing middle-earth as a setting. I'm talking about standard D&D in its recent iterations.

(also, Tolkien's goblins are not necessarily what I'd call humanoid. And I guess we should get over beating big T's cow to death again and again. He wrote his books ~70 years ago. They greatly influenced fantasy. But they are not the holy grail that anchors us in the past.)

Settings which retain the essential flavor to a great degree from Tolkien, despite the 1976 lawsuit...

Tolkien's goblins are upright mammalian bipeds with two hands, two feet, a head with binocular vision, a nose, and a mouth, and with one ear on either side of the head. How is that not Humanoid?

Orcs and goblins in D&D are very similar to Tolkien's... and by design, at that... so why should they not share the "born bad" element as well? Gygax seems to have thought so.

Heck, check the description of the half-orc in 5E... Grumsh influences even those who don't worship him, and makes them prone to anger and violence, and excess reactions to provocations.
 

Celebrim

Legend
To be frank, a lot of this conversation is silly IMO.

Ultimately it doesn't matter much for a campaign whether orcs are inherently evil or not. The inherent evil of the orcs is NOT why PC's kill orcs.

PC's kill orcs because when they encounter orcs in a traditional game it is universally the case that the orcs are bandits, slavers, and cannibals who are a danger to them, and they continue to assume that they should always kill orcs because they assume that this pattern will hold true for all orcs. And generally speaking, when they make this assumption they are right. Orcs when encountered are universally hostile. Every mayor or farmer they encounter universally truthfully says, "Those orcs are going around killing and taking my stuff, stealing children, raping the women, and torturing people for fun. Please help oh stalwart hero." At best maybe you can bribe them to leave you alone when your low level but that solution has low utility compared to killing the orcs and taking their stuff because you know they want to kill you and take your stuff. Players aren't being motivated by some abstract idea of whether or not orcs are always evil. They are being motivated by the pragmatic fact that orcs are their enemies.

All it would take to put a stop to that is put one orc in a role other than bandit cannibal slaver. Like if the first bar you had in your campaign had a bartender that was an orc and he said, "What'll it be, bub?", and the orcish bartender had an interesting personality and he was funny and decent, then right then and there the players would stop assuming all orcs are evil.

It does absolutely no good to say, "Well in my campaign, orcs aren't universally evil." if you never put orcs in a complex social situation that suggests you can have a relationship with an orc not based on violence. And if in point of fact, whether the origin of the problem is nature or nurture, if every single orc in your game is a bandit cannibal slaver that tortures things for fun, all the orcs in your game are evil and you aren't really saying much of anything interesting to say, "Well, they aren't inherently evil."

Practically every goblin you'll ever encounter in my campaign has evil alignment. A scarce few are neutral. The rare that are good are probably PCs, because I treat the personhood of goblins as a setting level secret that is in and of itself worthy of running an entire campaign around. But that doesn't preclude having a relationship with that goblin that doesn't revolve around killing it. There are plenty of evil humans in my game as well, but not all of them are doing stuff worthy of death and being stupidly belligerent toward the PCs.

But that doesn't make my take on goblins inherently more interesting than having goblins inhuman night predators that torture things for fun and are inherently alien and evil. It's just I've got other things to put in that role, and I nominated goblins for another one.
 

Sure, but aren't there better ways to play out this trope? Doesn't the trope become fuller, deeper, more engaging when the enemy is not "born evil" but when they have chosen to follow an evil god or do evil deeds because they are selfish, short-sighted, hateful or just otherwise jerks?


I think if you are playing with the concept of cosmic good and evil, what you are suggesting takes away from the concept. It doesn't add depth, it undermines the idea. So my taste would be, if you are going to use it, really lean into it. However, whether it was better or worse, wasn't really the point. The point was is it bad or wrong? I don't think it is. In terms of preference, I am personally not a huge fan of cosmic good and evil. But I don't see it as a problem, and I don't see it as an inferior way to approach the game.
 

Art speaks volumes about the artist. What you create says something about you. What they create says something about them. It does say something. It may not say what I think it says or what you think it says, but it does say something. All creations do.

I don't think having orcs that are evil says much. I think people are mistaking setting content for message. I could see evil orcs being an issue, but the full context of the setting matters. Just blankly declaring settings with universal evil in them bad, and the people who make them bad, and the people who play them bad....again, that brings me back to the 80s and the censorious calls we had with art, games and music at the time.

I also think it is really dicey assuming we know why a person engages with subject matter X or Y. I can't see into peoples' heads anymore than you can. And it is incredibly frustrating to be told you are a bad person because you like this kind of movie, or that kind of setting. I can't speak for others, but I know when I like films others find objectionable (for example action movies with lots of violence, horror films or revenge soaked martial arts movies) people who will claim that my enjoyment says something about me, almost universally miss the reasons I am finding enjoyment in them. It just strikes me as very victorian and censorious to comb through these things and find the hidden reasons why others shouldn't be enjoying them.

If you don't enjoy them. That is totally fine. I just think people are making a lot of assumptions here and using very fuzzy reasoning to argue that things are morally and to use in a setting.
 
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