Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Isn't it possible you find it troubling because you're anthropomorphizing an alien creature? We don't live in a world where Gods walk on the planet and literally create new creatures from magic. Their genetics, along with much of their physics, literally doesn't work like ours does. We humans are not born with an alignment - but a fantasy setting can posit, as part of the setting assumptions, that some alien creatures are born with an alignment. Much like they're born with magic.

Allowing for that setting doesn't speak to anything troubling about our own real world and real world genetics - nor is it intended to. It's not an allegory for our world.
The problem with this argument

Now I am all for scenarios that allow for alternative ways to resolve the challenge, like you mention.

But there are scenarios where that's not an option. When the orcs are raiding an innocent village under the authority of one-eyed Gruumsh cleric taskmasters, raping and pillaging and burning in the name of their deity, where challenging their chief or building the biggest bomb or tricking them or using diplomacy may not be an option that can work in time to save the people being slaughtered. Sometimes, the only realistic option is fighting them, if you want to save innocent lives.

And I don't agree with the claim that scenario is an inherent problem with fantasy gaming. That is a legitimate scenario, along with ones that don't have to be resolved that way.

And this example, is that the latter part is based on actions. If a creature that is not inherently evil is attacking a town, murdering and pillaging along the way, those are actions that it can be held accountable for. If it is under the whip of a cruel taskmaster, that may be reason to help it escape or overthrow its leader, but it is not sufficient reason to not hold it accountable. Looting and pillaging also represents a risk undertaken, that someone strong enough to kick your butt may show up.

The "inherently evil" argument (and I'm not even going to address the "they're so alien they're incomprehensible!" garbage) doesn't apply to this because under the "inherently evil" argument, a creature need only be born to be a valid target for killing by "heroes". It need not have actually committed any evil acts, it's just evil. Indeed under the "inherently evil" argument an entire society of peaceful orcs is a legitimate kill target because they are "born evil".

Who cares if we live in that world or not? That's an even dumber argument. You judge the degree of how badly something needs to die based on it's actions, not it's biology.
 

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jimmifett

Banned
Banned
In real life, the enemies of good people are bad people. In a Dungeon Fantasy setting, the enemies of good people are objectively not people.

That depends. A BBEG can easily be a person/sentient material plane species, and killing him, his lieutenants, financial backers, cultist followers, offspring, concubines, and generally anyone and everyone that'd want to take their place after untimely death, need killing too.
 

aramis erak

Legend
I don't have so much of a problem with alignment per se. Using the evil necromancer and his undead minions as an example, then being a hero can very much include killing this individual to end his threat.

What irks me is the inclusion of whole naturally occuring cultures/peoples/species that are quasi "always evil" as if evil was ingrained into their DNA, making them free to kill on sight for everyone who deem themselves good. Because this greatly reduces individualism and kills off different ways of solving problems. Also, I find the inclusion of alignment into genetics very, very troubling.

For example, even if Goblins have a very different culture and social structure, a canny hero could use these structures to keep the Goblins at bay. Intimidate them. Duel their chieftain/greatest champion to show your superiority. Make the greatest, biggest bomb in existence.

Tolkien's Goblins literally are tainted from the get go. There's no "good goblin" - they're all born bewed to unfightable desires to evil deeds. His description includes, "... cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted."

They are born bound to the forces of Shadow, not just by culture, but nature itself. They are also not free willed, unlike the Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Istari, and Ents.

Sure, their ancestors include an elf... but that elf was turned and bound to evil, and that evil bred with itself, to make a race so inherently vile that they're irredeemable.


D&D softened that with the alignment system - originally only one axis - and allowed one step off.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
The problem with this argument



And this example, is that the latter part is based on actions. If a creature that is not inherently evil is attacking a town, murdering and pillaging along the way, those are actions that it can be held accountable for. If it is under the whip of a cruel taskmaster, that may be reason to help it escape or overthrow its leader, but it is not sufficient reason to not hold it accountable. Looting and pillaging also represents a risk undertaken, that someone strong enough to kick your butt may show up.

The "inherently evil" argument (and I'm not even going to address the "they're so alien they're incomprehensible!" garbage) doesn't apply to this because under the "inherently evil" argument, a creature need only be born to be a valid target for killing by "heroes". It need not have actually committed any evil acts, it's just evil. Indeed under the "inherently evil" argument an entire society of peaceful orcs is a legitimate kill target because they are "born evil".

Who cares if we live in that world or not? That's an even dumber argument. You judge the degree of how badly something needs to die based on it's actions, not it's biology.

Not with orcs though. You just put them to the sword, or use a pillow if they are sleeping baby orcs. Its really a mercy killing since they are a piece of evil made flesh and the only helpful thing you can do for it is put it out of its misery. Though I'd say if a campaign views Orcs as that, a piece of flesh Grummish created in order to put his evil power in so he could do more evil by extension, then there are no peaceful orc cities. Just foul pits of evil waiting for the cleaners to show up.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Not with orcs though. You just put them to the sword, or use a pillow if they are sleeping baby orcs. Its really a mercy killing since they are a piece of evil made flesh and the only helpful thing you can do for it is put it out of its misery. Though I'd say if a campaign views Orcs as that, a piece of flesh Grummish created in order to put his evil power in so he could do more evil by extension, then there are no peaceful orc cities. Just foul pits of evil waiting for the cleaners to show up.

Well sure. But that's one of those self reflection moments: Who makes a game with sentient creatures that we have to say are "born evil" just to justify killing them? Shouldn't the fact that they're waging war against us be enough?
 

Well sure. But that's one of those self reflection moments: Who makes a game with sentient creatures that we have to say are "born evil" just to justify killing them? Shouldn't the fact that they're waging war against us be enough?

It is because they like the trope of cosmic forces of good and evil. I don't think it says anything one way or the other about the person who made the setting (or the person playing it). For all you know, they view it as a metaphor for real world evil (and as a visual metaphor, holy knight cutting through swatch of demonic and/or goblinoid hordes is pretty engaging). Like anything else, it could be used in a bad way by a bad person. But I don't think that makes these games inherently bad. At a certain point we do have to separate ourselves from the things we are playing at the table. I remember having a lot of difficulty as a kid playing in settings with multiple gods I didn't acknowledge, because I was religious (and the notion that God didn't exist in the setting troubled me). But I realized the setting was a thought experiment and fantasy. I feel like the sort of argument emerging here is the same one I heard in the 80s when people were accusing D&D of being satanic (the fantasy becomes to real, or the fantasy reveals the darkness within).

Personally i am not very interested in campaigns with cosmic evil like that. I usually prefer settings with more moral grayness to them. But I don't begrudge people who do like that sort of thing.

Think of it this way: are you bothered by horror movies that have monsters that are there to essentially kill and be killed? It isn't that different. Lots of horror films feature monsters the heroes have to destroy because they are the physical embodiment of evil.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
The "inherently evil" argument (and I'm not even going to address the "they're so alien they're incomprehensible!" garbage)

Wait. You don't call my position garbage, and then claim you don't need to address it. You do in fact need to address it if you want to throw that drive-by bash out there. I took the time to make a thoughtful argument on that point, and you just waiving your hand isn't persuasive of anything concerning that point.

doesn't apply to this because under the "inherently evil" argument, a creature need only be born to be a valid target for killing by "heroes". It need not have actually committed any evil acts, it's just evil. Indeed under the "inherently evil" argument an entire society of peaceful orcs is a legitimate kill target because they are "born evil".

No, I don't think that's the case. Evil is only a problem when it harms others. If they can somehow be evil while just passively doing nothing harmful, I see no issues with letting it simmer thinking all those evil thoughts. It's evil, AND it does evil things, and therefore the combination justifies killing it when innocent lives are in jeopardy.

Who cares if we live in that world or not? That's an even dumber argument.

Wait, now my argument is dumb because you disagree with it (without much in the way of an explanation for why you disagree or an attempt to inform or persuade anyone of why your disagreement is wiser)?

You judge the degree of how badly something needs to die based on it's actions, not it's biology.

It can be both. It's actions warrant your action in return, and it's biology can inform what action you take to stop it. If it is born to always do evil acts, then you know redeeming it isn't an option for your responsive action. One informs the other.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I thought the song "Holding Out for a Hero" was one of the stronger pieces in the soundtrack.

I watched Footloose (the original) as a teenager. I found myself (a) rooting for the adults and (b) critiquing several of the teens for being 'rebels without a clue'.
I conclude that I must be weird.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
I think there are two reasonable approaches to orcs.

1) Minor demons, inherently evil. Resemble no real world culture. Clearly distinct from humans and even animals. Possible traits include: live deep underground, thrive in darkness, lack normal biological processes, not born but come into existence via supernatural means, only exist as adults, don't need food or water to live (but devour flesh anyway).
2) Resemble real world cultures such as Vikings, Irish Celts, or possibly neanderthals. Have normal biological requirements. Not evil except in the sense that they are of a different cultural group to the PCs and may have conflicting interests.

The problem with D&D and Tolkien is that they take a middle position between these two approaches.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
The problem with D&D, and Tolkien, is that they take a middle position between these two approaches.

To a large extent, Tolkien agreed. One of the reasons he never finished the Silmarillion is that he decided he has overly humanized the characters of the orcs in The Lord of the Rings and he got obsessed at reworking the mythology in order to make it clearer that orcs were simply puppets of evil masters. However, the reworked material wasn't as good as the stuff he'd spent a lifetime creating and started veering off into allegory - something he really hated.

None of that likely would have been a problem except that people started taking his stories super-seriously and this wigged him out a bit.

Consider the case of the Tolkien Trolls. They are portrayed a bunch of cockney speaking bandits, but in point of fact are revealed to be stones that have been given an evil will and semblance of life - reverting back to the stone they were made from when facing the light of day. Not a lot of problems here, but the orcs with their personalities and apparent goals independent of those of their masters ended up being a bit too much like evil minded people, and the problem with that is that if they really were people then there was some chance, however remote, that they were redeemable. The attempts at redeeming Gollum, corrupted and wicked thing that he is, after all occupy a significant portion of the book and all the characters that are deemed Wise agree that mercy toward Gollum was wise and necessary. Why isn't the same treatment reasonable for orcs if they are but corrupted people? But this was for Tolkien less of a problem for how his mortal characters ought to behave, then a problem for how his immortal characters behaved. It raised less problems of morality for him, than problems of theology.
 

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