Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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In an episode of Star Trek "the City on the Edge of Forverer" captain Kirck allowed an innocent character played by Joan Collins to be killed in a car accident because if she had been saved then the History would change. Would you kill Hóng Xiùkáng to avoid the Taiping rebellion with 20 millions of deaths? What if Booster Gold (DC superhero from an alternative future) travels to the past and he kills Joker to avoid the nuclear bomb in Metropolis?

Why comics characters can't kill? Comics also had got their own years of "satanic panic", and the violence in books isn't like images from cartoons. Characters from books and novels can kill but if they are in a comic adaptation. In the old far west movies heroes could kill, but there were deaths without blood, you can see no injurie.

In the D&D movie Norda, the elf, killed some enemies, and I remember that because then I wondered: "could this be watched by children? They aren't the power rangers".

Shrek, the green ogre from Dreamworks, doesn't kill, but the main antagonists from his three first movies aren't live to tell it.
 

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aramis erak

Legend
In DnD, killing is so abstract that the impact of what an actual combat would be like is totally lost. I remember laughing at the idea of adding bleed damage to a weapon. What, swords don't normally cause bleeding wounds?

No, actually, typically they cause closed wounds with only internal bleeding... at least when the target is armored. Destructive testing by SCAers (usually upon euthanized pigs) has demonstrated that, vs armor, swords don't cut... they make deep bruises and shatter bones, but don't break skin.

Live steel ARMA groups also have often demonstrated that steel blades don't actually penetrate the typical leather or chain, but do blunt trauma through them.
 

Arilyn

Hero
No, actually, typically they cause closed wounds with only internal bleeding... at least when the target is armored. Destructive testing by SCAers (usually upon euthanized pigs) has demonstrated that, vs armor, swords don't cut... they make deep bruises and shatter bones, but don't break skin.

Live steel ARMA groups also have often demonstrated that steel blades don't actually penetrate the typical leather or chain, but do blunt trauma through them.

Unarmoured wizards don't bleed. Arrows, daggers, claws, rapiers, crossbow bolts, etc. don't cause bleeding.

There are no shattered bones, internal injuries...There are just hp, which have no effect on you until you start dying. This is my point. The horror of war and injury is kept at arms length. It's abstract, board gamey, and g rated video games. Which is fine. I don't want real war in my DnD game. The violence isn't really there. It's too abstract.
 

5ekyu

Hero
"So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that?"

First, no did not read thread or even all thru op, my exposure to fantasy draws more on the myths and legends, well before tolkein, well before other modern psyche takes and re-imaginings.

The lands of myths and monsters for me runs thru the houses of Jason, Odysseus, Lancelot, Beowulf and later to Conan, Grey Mouser etc etc and does not get near Jung or Freud.

So, when we decide to play sword and sorcery of varying ilks we go perhaps down that traditional path and killing is an exoected part of things but so are alliances, betrayal, etc.

When we want super heroic moral quandries we play those games.

In my games however xp and advancement are not hinged on certain behaviors but on genre and setting. So killing, sparing, etc are choices of character not mechanics.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
Well that's fair, but we're talking about D&D where the default for the game is that alignment is a real thing in that game world, and goblins are in fact evil by definition. They commit horrible atrocities on a daily basis, as not only part of their culture, but as part of their religion and arguably as part of their genetics (given fantasy themes about Deities who create and influence their creations).

You can play in a setting where you change those defaults, but we're talking about the general game. And frankly, I think there are probably better rules systems than D&D for a default-non-violent setting to function better.

The question raised by the OP is whether it's "a problem" for the default setting to assume evil alignments as part of groups of creatures, and killing those creatures as a default manner of dealing with them. And I argue that, in a war setting, yes it's OK and not a problem and can be heroic to save innocent people by killing irredeemably evil creatures who commit horrible atrocities and murders on the innocent as a routine part of their culture and religion and civilization.

I don't have so much of a problem with alignment per se. Using the evil necromancer and his undead minions as an example, then being a hero can very much include killing this individual to end his threat.

What irks me is the inclusion of whole naturally occuring cultures/peoples/species that are quasi "always evil" as if evil was ingrained into their DNA, making them free to kill on sight for everyone who deem themselves good. Because this greatly reduces individualism and kills off different ways of solving problems. Also, I find the inclusion of alignment into genetics very, very troubling.

For example, even if Goblins have a very different culture and social structure, a canny hero could use these structures to keep the Goblins at bay. Intimidate them. Duel their chieftain/greatest champion to show your superiority. Make the greatest, biggest bomb in existence.

Now I understand how other players might want a different style to their game, especially in terms of relaxing escapism vs. puzzle/problem-solving escapism. I, too, do love a playing good hack'n slay adventure game on my computer. And if I ever get the opportunity to play a PC in a Diablo-esque world, I would most likely slay masses of demons and their cultists and spawns. But this is a very specific setting and not the standard, modern D&D world to me.
 


Sadras

Legend
What irks me is the inclusion of whole naturally occuring cultures/peoples/species that are quasi "always evil" as if evil was ingrained into their DNA, making them free to kill on sight for everyone who deem themselves good. Because this greatly reduces individualism and kills off different ways of solving problems. Also, I find the inclusion of alignment into genetics very, very troubling.

Why? Modern science is continually trying to prove that genes play a role in humankind's gender preferences and various personality traits.
 

Sadras

Legend
Perhaps you would like to be more specific? Because I'm having a hard time finding which "modern conventions" if removed, make for fun roleplay.
Treating women as property?
Killing people who look different?
Slavery?
I'm dying to know, really.

....and also secretly hoping the first thing out of your post isn't "PC culture".

Looting, Breaking-and-Entering, Vigilante behaviour, Judge Jury and Executioner, Property Damage, Might vs Right, Pushback against Authority, Killing/Slaying beings for all sorts of reasons - differing ideologies, racism, extinguishing evil...etc

EDIT: I could easily play a Thyatian-hating Traladaran, whose background includes seeing his mother and father killed for sport by a Thyatian Knight who evaded justice with lies, bribery and manipulation.
 
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Gibili

Explorer
As with many of these discussions, I find myself thinking why do people feel they have to "stick to the rules". No one is going to arrest you if you decide not to use what is written in paragraph X on page Y. If as a DM, if you don't want to reward players with XPs derived from the number of monster hits points they've taken down, then don't. It might be necessary to let the players know and get agreement before hand of course.
A big caveat on what I'm writing here is that I am part of a group that has been playing together for over 30 years, so we're both hugely experienced players, DMs and super comfortable with each other, so that is totally different to playing with a new group, or a temporary group. I can't remember the last time we actually awarded experience based on kills. We certainly joke about it and sometimes a DM will do it, but only to wind a player up because they didn't get a hit in.
There are plenty of other methods for avoiding the kill/reward cycle.
Make capturing the information the enemy has the key thing.
Make the enemy a key person in guiding the players to their goal. They can't achieve it without the enemy's co-operation.
Put enough enemies in the way to make the violent option a non-option, forcing the players to work around them, figuratively and literally speaking, rather than ploughing through.
Ensure the players are hampered in some other way, disease, lack of equipment or ammo etc to make the violent option too risky.
Give extra rewards for people who do things non-violently, especially where you have a player who insists on kiling everything. Tempt them away. Even more so if non-violence or lethality makes the most sense given the setting of your game.
Make the punishment for violence too great. If someone persists in violence, have them arrested. Have their equipment taken away. Ensure that the enemy beats the living daylights out of them.
Confuse the players so they are not sure whether those people or creatures are enemies or not.
Make classic, traditional foes not enemies afterall. Instead of that group of orcs being a violent war party that must be cut down, make them refugees, downtrodden innocents. There's nothing that brings a party to a moral grinding halt quite like them wading in all guns blazing, only to discover that they are actually klling the very sorts of people they ought to be saving. Boy are they cautious after that.
Ensure there are plenty of women, children or other innocent folks around. The gung-ho attitude will just not work.
Something I often do is not kill the enemies. Once an enemy has taken enough damage I say they go down, injured and unlikely to get up anytime soon. Players generally then ignore that enemy from that point onwards, rather than administering a coup-de-gras. The enemy becoming incapacitated is a more realistic outcome anyway.
Put a dirty great battle in, but make it non-lethal because the conditions mean that lethal weapons are not allowed and all damage is effectively bruising. The local laws are extremely punative against carrying weapons. The bar doesn't permit weapons. There is a powerful magic suppression field in place. You can still have a fantastic roller coaster, ding dong of a fight that everyone finds really fun and exciting but the players have to think a bit harder, improvise a bit.

I haven't awarded XPs based on killing things ever I don't think. I much prefer storyline over mechanics but not everyone plays the same way, especially in these days of computer games, MMO, Battle Royale etc, where the simple rule tends to be kill=reward.
Finally I would say that for players carrot is better than stick.
 

Koloth

First Post
A fairly simple solution is go to a get XP for accomplishing the mission method. If the mission is rescue the Crown's diplomats from the opposing force before they are killed, the XP award stays the same regardless of if the party kills the entire opposing force via combat or uses stealth and fast talking to sneak in to the enemy camp and retrieve the diplomats without firing a single arrow or drawing drop of blood.
 

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