Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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pming

Legend
Hiya!

Heroes don't kill people, generally speaking. D&D isn't about killing. D&D is about slaying and vanquishing.

Goblins aren't people. Goblins are monsters. Slaying a goblin is like slaying a rabid wolf that will definitely kill any innocent person it comes across. If you personally vanquish a million goblins, then you have made the world a safer place for everyone - for all of the people, at least, and those are the only ones who carry moral weight.

Saelorn, bro, you? Me? ...same wave-length, dude..., same wave-length. :)

Well that's fair, but we're talking about D&D where the default for the game is that alignment is a real thing in that game world, and goblins are in fact evil by definition. They commit horrible atrocities on a daily basis, as not only part of their culture, but as part of their religion and arguably as part of their genetics (given fantasy themes about Deities who create and influence their creations).

The question raised by the OP is whether it's "a problem" for the default setting to assume evil alignments as part of groups of creatures, and killing those creatures as a default manner of dealing with them. And I argue that, in a war setting, yes it's OK and not a problem and can be heroic to save innocent people by killing irredeemably evil creatures who commit horrible atrocities and murders on the innocent as a routine part of their culture and religion and civilization.

As with Saelorn, you, me, same wave-length. :)

I think the OP is either missing, or not quite understanding that different Genre's have a different contextual meaning of "Heroic". Reality is the same way (to me, heroics means putting others ahead of your own well-being, without regard (or with complete acceptance) for the consequences to yourself). Giving to charity is not "heroic". It's nice. Helping the homeless...also not heroic. Just a nice thing to do. Pushing a homeless guy out of the way of a bus, knowing that you are going to be hit by it and very likely die...THAT is Heroic. Go do that if you want to be seen as a hero.

But in the context of...

Super Hero Genre: Killing is BAD!

Horror Genre: Killing HUMANS is BAD...everything else is fair game if not encouraged.

Sword & Sorcery: Killing is something that happens often enough that in "civilization" it is frowned upon. But on in the wilderness, with no guardsmen or law around...killing is often necessary.

Survival Genre: Killing HUMANS is a toss up; some folks will help and share with you to survive...others will kill you and take your boots off you as you lie there choking on your own blood. It's a gamble.

Post-Apocalyptic: Killing is a fact of life. When the very air and plant life is trying to kill you, you don't take chances. Shoot first and then run the other direction. Killing in "civilized" towns/settlements is very much frowned upon (group survival and all that).

Sci-Fi: Depends on the "state of the universe", really. This is probably the MOST varied of all the genres, IMHO. You can have Star Trek, where killing is BAD. Or you can have Warhammer 30k where killing is GOOD. Most fall in between.

As for D&D...which is classified now as "Heroic Fantasy", oddly enough... I would put in the "Killing the civilized races is BAD. Killing the non-civilized races is either/or. Killing the evil monster races is almost always a GOOD thing. As Mistwell mentioned, the evil races (orcs, goblins, troglodytes, trolls, gnolls, kobolds, etc) were created by Evil Gods and Goddesses so that they could carry out and spread the dictates of Evil across the world.

I use this game often, but I'll use it again: Powers & Perils. Back in '84(?) I go this for Christmas. In it, one thing that kinda struck me was that of Alignment. Yes, it has Alignments...but different than AD&D's. Anyway, the gods created races in their 'image'. Humans are the exception. Humans are not born with an Alignment; they have "free will/choice" and become Aligned with any of the Alignments. Everyone who isn't Human, is born with an Alignment. Period. If you are a Dwarf, Elf, or Faerry, you are of the Elder Alignment. Period. You will not find a "Lawful Dwarf", or a "Chaos Efl", or a "Khotothi Faerry". Well, not entirely true. A really bad, Abysmal Failure, with magic may magically change and tie a character to that spells Alignment. It's fantasy...there's always exceptions! :) This is something that I've always sort of "carried over" into my AD&D games; the non-humans and non-demihumans (re: monsters) are born "tied, spiritually, metaphysically" to the deity that created them. That's it. ALL goblins are Evil. ALL Swanmay are Good. Etc, etc, etc. But, as I said, it's fantasy, so there are always exceptions; but those exceptions come from 'outside'. An orc can never truly be anything other than Evil. "It's in their nature", so to speak.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

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Arilyn

Hero
First of all, this article reads as if the definition of "hero" is something that is, if not universally agreed upon, concrete enough that it doesn't need to be mentioned. That is the primary flaw that creates the false tension addressed by the rest of the article.

The fact is that the term hero, as used in a modern context, can most accurately be defined as "someone who reflects the dominant cultural values (or my cultural values, depending on the context)." For example, most fantasy RPGs privilege violence as heroic action because of the influence of Tolkien, who himself was reflecting the Anglo-Saxon values system of the stories he loved (and knew well). Beowulf was not a "hero" for saving Hrothgar; he was a hero for killing Grendel. The idea of the "sacrificial" hero is primarily a construct of Christianity in the Western world. The hero who sacrifices himself for others would be unrecognizable outside of a cultural values system that did not center on the sacrifice of notable cultural characters. Many cultures would consider such actions/behavior stupid. To stretch this concept to an extreme, there are extant cultures today for whom "heroism" can be defined as blowing up women and children in order to demoralize your "enemy."

What you are actually saying in your article is that, whether you are aware of it or not, the dominant Judeo-Christian concept of sacrifice is the basis for your definition of hero, so you find fantasy games that express different cultural values systems less heroic. That is totally your prerogative. I certainly hope you find systems and settings to satisfy your values system!

But "killing" is not a "problem" in heroic RPGs, especially when you understand that part of the enjoyment for some of us is roleplaying those different cultural values, ones that are out of place in the modern world...

A fair point, but I don't think players really want to shed much of our modern morality. By our standards people were awfully nasty in the medieval period...
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
But "killing" is not a "problem" in heroic RPGs, especially when you understand that part of the enjoyment for some of us is roleplaying those different cultural values, ones that are out of place in the modern world...
I agree with everything you wrote except for the last paragraph. D&D takes a modern perspective on good and evil, as expressed by its alignment system. In Beowulf's world, slavery was moral. In the High Medieval period it was sometimes (whenever a crusade was called) perceived as moral, indeed essential, to execute Jews who refused to convert to Christianity. That's not the world of D&D.
 
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Eirikrautha

First Post
A fair point, but I don't think players really want to shed much of our modern morality. By our standards people were awfully nasty in the medieval period...

Au contraire! Part of the fun of roleplaying (for some/many of us; experiences may vary) is exactly the opportunity to shed modern conventions and restrictions.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Au contraire! Part of the fun of roleplaying (for some/many of us; experiences may vary) is exactly the opportunity to shed modern conventions and restrictions.

Perhaps you would like to be more specific? Because I'm having a hard time finding which "modern conventions" if removed, make for fun roleplay.
Treating women as property?
Killing people who look different?
Slavery?
I'm dying to know, really.





....and also secretly hoping the first thing out of your post isn't "PC culture".
 

Eirikrautha

First Post
I agree with everything you wrote except for the last paragraph. D&D takes a modern perspective on good and evil, as expressed by its alignment system. In Beowulf's world, slavery was moral. In the High Medieval period it was sometimes (whenever a crusade was called) perceived as moral, indeed essential, to execute Jews who refused to convert to Christianity. That's not the world of D&D.

Hmmm. We remember Greyhawk and AD&D differently.

Also, you are philosophically incorrect about the alignment system. It answers the first question of theology in a very archaic fashion: "Is something 'good' because God says it is good, or does God say it is good because it is good?" The alignment system (and the theology of D&D) is based in the idea that a divine creatures' commands can define good (see the Paladin and the dilemma of the Orc village). In old D&D, slaughtering evil creatures (even young ones) did not cause a Paladin to fall. It is the more modern answer, that there is a universal good that is transmitted through divine will (but that nonbelievers can still express or enact) that would support your assertion. I can think of no ways that this idea is expressed in D&D lore...
 

Eirikrautha

First Post
Perhaps you would like to be more specific? Because I'm having a hard time finding which "modern conventions" if removed, make for fun roleplay.
Treating women as property?
Killing people who look different?
Slavery?
I'm dying to know, really.





....and also secretly hoping the first thing out of your post isn't "PC culture".

Thievery? Conquest? If I like the neighbor's house, I can't just go take it. In D&D, sometimes it is even encouraged to do so (how many ruined castles have you "liberated" in TSR or WotC's own published adventures?)! There are all kinds of actions that are frowned upon in modern civilization that are practically mandatory in D&D.

Oh, and the funny thing about "dog whistles"? If you can hear it, you must be a dog...
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
[MENTION=6777843]Eirikrautha[/MENTION] The following quotes are from the 1e DMG.

Good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest.​

This is the 19th century idea of utilitarianism.

NEUTRAL EVIL: Similar to the neutral good alignment, that of neutral evil holds that neither groups nor individuals have great meaning. This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meant to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially suppressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything.​

Social Darwinism, another 19th century notion.

Good And Evil: Basically stated, the tenets of good are human rights, or in the case of AD&D, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant.​

Paraphrasing the US Declaration of Independence.

According to the 1e PHB:

If they ever knowingly perform an act which is chaotic in nature, they must seek a high level (7th or above) cleric of lawful good alignment, confess their sin, and do penance as prescribed by the cleric. If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform an evil act, he or she loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably.​

Note that this doesn't say anything about the specific god the cleric worships which suggests that alignment is the most important factor here, not divine will.
 
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Ratskinner

Adventurer
Seems to me that one big component of the issue is the idea of character "advancement" rather than "development".

The "zero-to-hero" line of character development is only one way, and not even all that common a way, that we see characters develop within fiction. Yet it is the singular way that we expect rpg characters to develop! Even within the oft-cited Starwars franchise it isn't the entire group that progresses that way. Many of the characters stay relatively constant (at least as far as we can tell from their abilities, etc.) D&D (and through inheritance, most rpgs) seem to feel that everyone should start off as the farmboy and work their way up. (Star Wars would have been very short, if all the heroes started off as ignorant as Luke.)

Now, I don't know that it would be any more or less popular if it were optional for one player to be the mentor, and one the zero, and a few more the sidekick, etc. However, Fate presumes that the PCs are competent from the get-go. (Which is, of course another type of uniformity) and that doesn't seem to stop anyone from enjoying Fate. Similarly, Capes doesn't seem to care at all about the relative competence and power of the characters, they have the same ability to affect the narrative (at least mathematically/theoretically, some may be more challenging to play well under different circumstances.) However, that game is drastically different from D&D and is focused solely on narrative and competition between the players, there is no attention paid to simulation at all.

That focus, I think, is the key, and is one of the ways that a nominally sim game like D&D can't tolerate (too strong?) the kind of in-fiction imbalance in PCs that would be necessary to get away from it. And maybe it shouldn't. I mean, the murderhobo lifestyle is a big part of how D&D fundamentally "works". Its the core of the game design, if we're honest with ourselves.

However, if I were to try and approach D&D this way...I'd pick a level, say 5th. Start everybody at 5th level (or 3+1d4) and start playing. Just don't level up or track XP. Any and all "advancement" would come in the form of in-fiction changes of character status, etc. (I might work up a list of these ahead of time.) Occasionally, very occasionally...like season finale occasionally, let someone level up when something happens in-fiction to justify it. Maybe even add some kind of "Trauma" mechanic like from Blades in the Dark to slowly wear down some the characters over time. (Come to think of it, steal a lot of stuff from BitD like leveling up the party as an organization.) I'd also look at some of the more complicated motivation/alignment style mechanics out there. (At an extreme, I might develop "classes" of character development opportunities that the PCs can choose and move forward on, granting in-fiction, but not necessarily level-based advancement.)* At some point, though, it makes more sense to play another game.

Working against you will be the weird confluence of combat and non-combat capacities of the characters. So maybe steal the "datapoint" mechanic from Uncharted Worlds, success at appropriate tasks gives you a "datapoint" of information. Later, you can cash in Datapoints to modify appropriately related rolls. So you've researched the Badguy's weakness for holy water, spend that datapoint to gain advantage on that attack roll (or something.)

Anyway, that's my $.02.

*You could make some of them really interesting:
Desk Job - You've been given an appointment by the local Sherriff, Mayor, or other official. Lose one point of Strength and one point of Constitution for spending too much time doing paperwork. Gain an office and the authority to order about a cadre of 3rd-level guardsmen. If you're near your place of authority, you can summon 2d4 of them in less than 15 minutes. They can act as your bodyguards or enforcers as needed. The DM will let you know about the other responsibilities of your position.
 

However, Fate presumes that the PCs are competent from the get-go. (Which is, of course another type of uniformity) and that doesn't seem to stop anyone from enjoying Fate.
That might depend on how you measure it. How often does anyone run a long-term campaign in a level-free system that successfully lasts for fifty sessions? From my understanding, level-based games offer much better player-retention, since players want to stick around and advance. Games that offer lateral advancement (or no advancement) tend to be popular for short campaigns and one-shots.
 

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