Knowledge (Local) - How Does Your Group Use and Define It

[The_Fan]

I've lived in the same area all my life. It's a relatively small but growing town situated in the mountains.

Don't ask me where anything is. I don't know the names of any important political figures. I was surprised to find out we had more than one nightclub. However, some of my friends know this area like the back of their hand, even though they came here from California.

I see knowledge (local) as an ability to get a handle on the local scene. If you move to an unfamiliar area, I impose a penalty on it until you've been there for a few weeks, by which time you understand it better than some locals.

 

[Teemu]

I’m currently using the specialized version of Knowledge (local), i.e. you choose a certain region (very broad, though), but I really like the reasons for using the universal approach. However, I’m kind of uncertain about using it because I’m afraid it could seriously overlap with Knowledge (geography), which is “lands, terrain, climate, people”. How to keep them separate?

 

[Jack Simth]

I’m currently using the specialized version of Knowledge (local), i.e. you choose a certain region (very broad, though), but I really like the reasons for using the universal approach. However, I’m kind of uncertain about using it because I’m afraid it could seriously overlap with Knowledge (geography), which is “lands, terrain, climate, people”. How to keep them separate?

My take?
Geography: Maps, navigation, and what you expect to find in the area; you can find Metropolis, and have a good idea of the general climate, if you will need to cross swamps, plains, or mountains (and how often and in what order) to get there, and what the general terrain will be like when you get there, and even who is the current ruler and the basic political structure (all with appropriet skill checks, of course). However, once there, you won't know such things as who in power owes favors to who, who is quietly taking orders from another, or which street that world-renowned artificer keeps his shop.
Local: You can't find Metropolis, and have no idea about the route to that distant city, but once there, not only do you know who owes who favors, who is taking orders from whom, and which street that world-renowned artificer keeps his shop, but you know where to find the quietest inn for the spellcaster, can hook a rogue up with the local theive's guild, and may take the party cleric straight to the local shrine to his diety (if one exists) (all with appropriet skill checks, of course).

 

[TheGraySquirrel]

I've always interpretted Knowledge(Local) as being universal. It's your ability to pick up information for a locale, similar to Gather Information. Gather Information is your ability to gather information about a specific item of interest, and must be done actively by the player. Knowledge(Local), as I see it, is what you overheard in the taverns and the streets, what you learned about the area while talking to the baker when you were buying your bread, and conversations from people you met on the road before you got there. This would let you pick up various bits of info that may or may not be useful about the area without having to go through every bit of conversation the PCs engage in with the NPCs, since I'm sure adventurers would engage in conversation much more often then the average player normally does with the locals. It also seems intuitive to me that Knowledge(Local) only applies to places with civilization, it wouldn't work out in the middle of a wasteland to learn more about the wasteland.

 

[Quickleaf]

Way into house rules, but...

I've been sort of addressing this question during an adventure I'm designing and through two other threads I've posted to in the last week. I'll summarize the differences between Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) as I see them, then I'll give you some pointers on how to use house rules to really make Knowledge (Local) work for you.

How are these skills different?
Gather Information: This skill is used to get information about local occurences, customs, taxes, legends, popular figures, and common laws. It is also used to perform urban tracking and to guide a conversation without someone realizing what you're doing. (see the Atlas Games' supplement Crime & Punishement by Keith Baker) It requires time, someone to talk to, and possibly a bit of money. In addition, someone can track you down if you've been asking around too much about them.

Knowledge (Local): This skill is used to remember important information that you already know, like which parts of a city are dangerous, who is the real power behind the throne, local customs, urban legends & ghost stories, and what to expect from the city watch. It is used to find your way in a big city, and you can also use it to find a rare or slightly illegal business.

Finding Your Way in a Big City
You can get lost in the city. Avoiding getting lost requires a Knowledge (local) check, with a DC depending on what district you're in. If you are untrained in Knowledge (local), an Intelligence check suffices. Use the rules in the SRD Wilderness and Environment section as inspiration, perhaps increase chance of dangerous random encouners (muggers, wandering into enemy's HQ) while lost.

Convenient district with street signs and friendly people (DC 2)
Industrial district with surly folk and many alleys (DC 10)
Slum or ghetto with suspicious people and tangled houses (DC 15)
Labyrinthine thieves' district with secret passages (DC 20)

It is raining heavily +2
It is at night (+3 if there is poor street lighting, +1 if there is good lighting)
A fog sets in +5

Going to Foreign Lands
See this thread for one way to represent a PC's acclimation of knowledge skills in a foreign culture...
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=139184

 

[RigaMortus]

Officially, the book sees it as "legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions and humanoids."

I play it just as the book says, if I want to find out about some local legends near Waterdeep, I make a KL roll. If I want to know about what type of people inhabit the Underdark, I make a KL roll. If I need to know the laws of the Silver Marches, KL. Etc...

Now the DM may set different DCs according to how common this knowledge is, or based on if I ever been to one of these locales, or heard anything about them in my travels. Some will be low, some will be high. Some checks I will make easily, others I won't know didly squat about.

Seems simple enough to me...

 

[Wormwood]

The way I see it, there are plenty of Knowledge skills as is, and I see no reason to add more for the sake of verisimilitude.

One of my favorite 3.5 changes was to codify what each Knowledge entails. Knowledge: local grants to character information on "legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, and humanoids(!)". I see no reason why that information is actually considered more region specific than Kno:history (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities) or Kno:Nobility (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities).

 

[Quickleaf]

Wormwood, to summarize the point a lot of people are making:

Lastly, you immediately have local knowledge anywhere you go -- K(L) is K(L), and wherever you go there you are. The third option is incredibly unrealistic.

I think what you are saying is: What's the difference between K(L) and any other Knowledge skill? We should treat them all the same, either equally universal or equally region/culture-specific.

My solution was to make a house rule for assimilating knowledge skills to a new culture. It's short, sweet, and to the point. See my above post for a link.

Basically the idea is that Knowledge (arcana, architecture & engineering, nature, religion, the planes) all have limited use in a foreign culture without being acclimated. Knowledge skills that entirely rely on customs or elements which change according to where you are (geography, history, nobility & royalty, local) cannot be used in a foreign culture until acclimated. It's a simple system that presents an all-or-nothing answer. Not at all representing the shades of grey in the learning process; a more complex system would allow you to "unlock" certain level of skill after a period of time in the culture.

I know that Spycraft 2.0 does away with Knowledge skills entirely. And I can see why! They really depend upon the world your character lives in and the campaign you play in. Tweaking them to be equally clear & useful requires lots of work.