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[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

JRRNeiklot

First Post
I totaly most have been playing a diffrent game entriely then you guys.

we almost never (and never for long) rolled 3d6.

We almost always (although not always) had atleast 1 player with an 18, and often most had atleast 1 16.

I have seen atleast 6 fighters with 18xx str, and 2 of them had 18/00 str (one awarded by dm, and one roled in advance but suposadly witnessed)

We generally rolled 4d6 drop lowest, but an 18 is still rare. And in over 30 years, I have never seen an 18 (00). My current magic user has an 11 int, though he did start with a 12 before he got drained. I would love to see a return to less dependency on stats.
 

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BobTheNob

First Post
I have often played wizards and I never once just sat out combats when I ran out of spells which happened all the time in earlier editions.

I used to fire my crossbow, throw alchemical items, dart around dragging fallen comrades out of the fray and pouring healing potions down their throat to get them back up.

I was even known to draw a weapon or use my quaterstaff to play whack a mole on someone's head.

If you are going to say doing all that is nothing because it is not doing a lot of damage so does not count then the issue is not the wizard doing something it is the wizard is not doing as much damage as the rest of the party.

Giving the wizard to fire a magic missile a round for 1D4+1 is no better then firing a crossbow.

Bingo.

Really, if you equate usefulness in a fight to damage dealt, you really are looking at it with blinkers on.
 

Libramarian

Adventurer
It IS too dangerous. Mathematically, this is horrible.

I know that in 1e and 2e the math was so all over the place that most people paid very little attention to it....and most of the monsters were so easy to defeat that losing a spell wasn't even a big deal. Unfortunately, when most enemies have 14 hitpoints and your fighter does that with one swing of his sword, the rest of the party isn't really needed to defeat that monster.

However, in both 3e and 4e when the math was a little closer(moreso in 4e, but 3e had the issue more the harder the monsters were) it was a big deal. Often each party member was expected to output X damage during each of their turns on average. So, if a monster had 200 hp, let's say you wanted to defeat it in 3 rounds(because in 4 rounds it could do enough damage to kill someone). That means that each party member in a group of 5 was expected to do an average of 13.3 points of damage per round.

Maybe that meant you missed 2 of the rounds and hit for 40 damage in the third round...maybe that meant you did almost nothing for 2 rounds and cast a spell that did 40 damage in the 3rd round.

However, it was my experience that if a DM noticed that you could wait around for 2 rounds doing nothing and cast a spell in the 3rd round and win....then enemies got stronger to compensate. After all, there was no risk to your life at all if you could just sit there for 2 rounds not doing anything.

So, if you could do 40 damage per round with a spell, you'd fight enemies that required that each party member do 120 damage in 3 rounds to defeat it.

So, a single round where you were not able to cast a spell could be the difference between life and death for at least one party member.

As far as the suggested solution...it seems alright to me. You get a disadvantage for being hit(you can't cast your big spell) but your turn isn't completely ruined(you still get to use your less powerful at-will spell instead.
Well then clearly the solution is to go back to the math of 1e/2e.
 

Libramarian

Adventurer
If you're doing 1d4+1 damage a round and it's fluffed as a "magic missile" instead of a "crossbow bolt", and you consider that "playing a videogame"... then I'd wonder what video games you were playing.
If at-will cantrips are clearly just refluffed weapons, the first thing I'll be doing is banning them.

That would almost be like they were trying to water down the flavor of magic.
 

If at-will cantrips are clearly just refluffed weapons, the first thing I'll be doing is banning them.

That would almost be like they were trying to water down the flavor of magic.
I think this is a good point. Magic, including magic that can be cast using only time and effort should always feel magical. It should do something that a normal weapon cannot, but that is not necessarily anymore powerful for that fact. Differentiating magic from the mundane is as crucial as ensuring one does not always trump the other.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Hussar

Legend
Bingo.

Really, if you equate usefulness in a fight to damage dealt, you really are looking at it with blinkers on.

So, I get to be a wizard a couple of rounds per day and the rest of the time I'm a glorified commoner with some shiny jewelry?

No thanks. If I'm a wizard, I want to be a WIZARD. Or, make me like Gandalf and actually let me fight. Take your pick. Because, "glorified commoner most of the time for the first four levels" is not my idea of fun. There's a REASON a lot of us don't play AD&D anymore.

I want my wizard to look like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwiLw4uJNp8&t=50s]legend of the seeker - zeddicus zu'l zorander - YouTube[/ame]

What do you want your wizard to look like?
 

patrick y.

First Post
My problem here is that using magic in this way takes the "magic" away from magic. Magic just becomes another tool in the toolbox. A glowing purple ray of energy is just another sledgehammer after the 20th time you've seen it in a day.

With respect, the vast majority of adventuring magic - whether it be spells or items - is just another tool in the toolbox, and has been from the beginning. Whether from a player's standpoint, or from a character's standpoint in the average campaign setting, there's nothing particularly spectacular about a magic missile spell, or a potion of cure light wounds, especially after you've seen it once or twice. The guy who wiggles his fingers and puts monsters to sleep once a day is consistently going to be that guy, every day, until he gains a bit of experience and becomes the guy who can also waggle his thumbs and shoot fire out of his palm. The guy who can brandish a symbol and cause a skeleton to run away might be an impressively holy man, but after he's cleared rooms of undead in a few successive crypts, using the exact same method every time, he's just a guy with a useful skill.

The mechanics of player controlled magic, regardless of edition, have never lent themselves particularly well to feeling, well, magical. They're very codified, and a fireball is a fireball is a fireball. Only when you start getting into things like relics and artifacts, or oddball stuff like wands of wonder is there much of a sense of magical wonder.

To consistently find "magical" magic in D&D, you have to start looking at creatures and locations. I think D&D excels in those areas, and always has. Player controlled magic, though? Not so much.
 

Orius

Legend
Well, I don't know how this compares to 4e casting, because I've never played 4e, and also I wasn't fond of the idea of 4e dumping Vancian magic in the first place. Anything that Mearls is working on comes from the experiences of 4e as well as prior editions, so there's elements I'm not aware of. Mearls is good at analyzing the game and how things work, but I don't always like his approaches to fixing things. It might be because sometime during 3e, the optimization approach started becoming popular and reduced a lot of the game to number-crunching. This is where wizards and CoDzilla were considered the absolute best classes, while everything else was being seen as increasingly worse. That's fine for something like a videogame, but in a tabletop setting, it shouldn't need to dominate, especially if the DM knows what he's doing and gives the non-optimized characters something to do.

Caster dominance doesn't bother me, but since wizard is my favored class, I could be a bit biased. That doesn't matter to me though. The issue here of course is of the quadratic wizard, and this has long been the case. It doesn't bother me because I remember the old school wizard (M-U or mage if you prefer) well. The wizard was a powerful class, but had to earn that power, it was weak at low levels, and had the slowest XP progression in early levels. The eventual payoff had to be earned. The good wizard players knew how to play at low levels, use oil or assist in non-combat ways, do what needed to be done while the fighters were fighting. Of course combat was shorter in the past, monsters had less hp without Con bonuses kicking in, and there weren't things like powers and AoOs and feats and stuff going off. That is when players risked combat, because the big xp payoff was in treasure, and not slain enemies. Then again, the game really only assumed about 10 levels of play while 3e upped it to 20, and really most of the complaints about 3e is how stuff starts to break down in the mid teens. Also, one bonus the fighter gained at high levels was the ability to attract followers. That was in 3e too, but shifted off to the optional Leadership feat, which I'm sure a lot of optimizing number crunchers considered a waste.

At will cantrips sounds a bit over powered at first, but consider that 3e cantrips do only 1d3 damage. That is comparable to the damage wizards could do with what few simple ranged weapons they had in the past. Crossbows do better damage, but the wizard still has to make an attack roll. So this doesn't bother me too much I guess.

Keeping spells under control I think gives a bad example. Sure that cleric might be wearing full plate and have a big penalty to save against grease, but really at level 15 he should be able to dispel the effect anyway, so why is it a problem?

Dangerous spell casting is a misnomer. This sounds a lot like how it's always been in the past. In Basic and AD&D, taking damage fizzled the spell and it was lost. In 3e it worked like this:

SRD said:
If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.

Oh look, it's fizzle and loss again, though any wizard who's built at all sensibly will have a decent chance to make the Concentration check. Here the spell fizzles, but it isn't lost, so really it's more generous than the game was in the past.

Don't like the idea behind scrolls. Again, I can't say what things were like in 4e, but if 3e wizards were cranking out too many of them, then why not do something like up the XP cost? I remember that low level scrolls at least had a very trivial XP cost, like 1 XP for a first-level scroll. That's not a huge sacrifice at all even at first level. Wands sounds like it goes back to 2e and earlier wands, which weren't necessarily bad, but again I liked 3e wands. Again if things need control, then make them more expensive so that a wizard isn't just cranking them out at will but must consider the cost.

Buff spells got broken in 3e in part because there seemed to be way more of them than in 1e (can't speak for 2e here). I find people don't tend to use buffs in 1e nearly as much, perhaps because of having to choose between buffing and blasting.

It might also be because monsters have more hp in 3e (again the Con bonuses kicking in), so blasting is considered inefficient. A fireball in 1e and even 2e could clear out whole groups of monsters at once, particularly since 1e did not have a damage cap on it.

Creative use of spells I'm somewhat cautious about, but then I'm also seeing it from an older point of view. I remember how Skip Williams used to advise DMs heavily against this in Sage Advice and the High Level Campaigns book, because creative use of magic could easily lead to abuse.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
A first level wizard in AD&D has the exact same chance to hit as a first level fighter.
Er, close.

Checking ye olde 1e DMG tells me that at 1st level everybody (MUs, Clerics, Thieves, etc.) has the same attack matrix except Fighter types, who are 1 point better. Fighters at 0th level are the same as all the other 1st-level types, and as no other class lists a 0th-level attack matrix it's easy to see how that could be misread.

Your point is still more than valid, however: a low-level wizard who is out of spells can still be useful in a fight - provided he's willing to get on and do it.
Hussar said:
So, I get to be a wizard a couple of rounds per day and the rest of the time I'm a glorified commoner with some shiny jewelry?
You know, if the party was seen as an individual 4e character its wizard would represent its daily powers; the clerics might be the encounter powers, and the other guys are the at-wills.

There's only two ways to balance a wizard: give 'em lots of spells per day (a.k.a. at-wills) but minimize the effects of each one, or only give 'em a few spells per da but make those spells be potential win buttons. 4e did the former, 1e did the latter. At the same time 1e spells had lots of risk involved while 4e spells are pretty safe.

You seem to prefer the 4e version, I prefer the 1e way. 5e designers, your challenge is to please us both. :)
Orius said:
It might also be because monsters have more hp in 3e (again the Con bonuses kicking in), so blasting is considered inefficient. A fireball in 1e and even 2e could clear out whole groups of monsters at once, particularly since 1e did not have a damage cap on it.
Hmmm...quite true, and something I hadn't considered; and a fine argument for vastly reducing h.p. totals all round; because blasting is fun. It should always be a valid choice, but if your fireball only does 5d6* (save for half) and the opponents each have 75 h.p. then your so-called big blast spell is more like an area-effect popgun. You're better off casting buffs and support spells, which may be efficient but are also kinda dull.

As far as I'm concerned the straight-up deadliest mages should be Evokers. They should also be the riskiest to hang around with.

* - by the way, I really don't like damage caps on blast spells, makes 'em far too tame at uber-high level.

Lan-"getting hit by 'friendly' wizard fire too many times led me to purchase this fine Wizardslayer longsword"-efan
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
There are only two ways to balance a wizard: give 'em lots of spells per day (a.k.a. at-wills) but minimize the effects of each one, or only give 'em a few spells per da but make those spells be potential win buttons. 4e did the former, 1e did the latter. At the same time 1e spells had lots of risk involved while 4e spells are pretty safe.
There are really a lot of ways. But, yes, that's part of how 1e tried to balance magic-users. They got very powerful spells, but couldn't use them often. They also got very powerful spells, but had many restrictions on the circumstances under which they could be obtained and cast. They also got very powerful spells and faced risks in trying to cast them in combat. They also got very powerful spells at high level, but were horribly fragile at low level.

Some of those balancing factors fell apart, though. Spell interruption was unclear and un-fun, and often got softened or thrown out. Components were a pain to track, so were often hand-waved. If vancian memorization wasn't replaced with 'mana points' or something, it was obviated as a meaningful limitation at higher levels as the magic-user got more and more spell slots every day. Where an actual Jack Vance Dying Earth Vancian magician topped out a maybe half a dozen spells a day, a D&D 'vancian' magic-user hit that benchmark at level 5, and kept going up /faster/ from there.

2e and 3e further softened all of those limitations, and hardly pulled back the power of spells at all. 3.x wizards were thus radically overpowered.


But, yes, in a broader sense you can give a character basically unrestricted abilities of balanced power levels, or you can give a character unbalancing powers and try to restrict them enough to balance them out.

Doing one or the other in a system gives you a better chance of having a balanced system. Combining the two creates a lot of potential for imbalance. Heck, even using the former strategy, but having varied restrictions could be a bit dicey.
 

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