L4W Discussion Thread V

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
I'm going to have to disagree with KD & Someone here, both using earlier versions of the rules. Anything earlier than Essentials has been pretty much superseded by the same. One thing they did is attempt to clear up a lot of their bull**** (this various weapon/implement interactions specifically).

As for magic item properties:
Rules Compendium said:
Unless otherwise noted, a magic item's property remains active only while the creature wears the item or wields the item.
KD is also quoting the old version of the Holy Avenger; the current reads:
page 257; Dungeon Master's Kit said:
Your radiant powers deal 1d10 extra radiant damage when used through the weapon.
The new Holy Avenger specifies its power can only be used through the weapon; the Prime Shot dagger does not.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I'm going to have to disagree with KD & Someone here, both using earlier versions of the rules. Anything earlier than Essentials has been pretty much superseded by the same. One thing they did is attempt to clear up a lot of their bull**** (this various weapon/implement interactions specifically).

Odd that you see it this way. That is a general item rule stating that the item has to be wielded or used as opposed to the specific rule about weapons. I'm not seeing where a general items rule trumps a specific weapon items rule (which is not applicable to any other items, just weapons).

With the AV rule, it states to gain the benefits of the property:

1) PC must wield weapon.
2) Properties only apply to powers used with weapon.

Vs. Essentials.

1) PC must wield (or use) item.

An omission of a specific rule in the new rules shouldn't necessarily be an indication that the old specific rule is invalid and that it is now superceded by the new general rule.

Effectively, the "Unless otherwise noted" clause of the Essentials rule for items is invoked by the "weapons property rule" of AV. The AV rule is an "otherwise note". :D

As for magic item properties:KD is also quoting the old version of the Holy Avenger; the current reads:The new Holy Avenger specifies its power can only be used through the weapon; the Prime Shot dagger does not.

Yeah, I did a "double check the Compendium" and my eyes glazed over it. Doh! :lol:


To me, this seems like a case of the designers from day one wanting the PCs to use the powers through the weapon in order to gain weapon benefits like properties. There hasn't been one rules quote posted so far (including your Esseentials one) which explicitly indicates otherwise. The AV rule, though, is very explicit concerning weapons.

Granted, the Essentials rule does give an explicit general items rule and if someone were only using Essentials rules, then that would be the proper interpretation. But as far as I know, PBP on EnWorld (unless otherwise noted ;)) uses all of the rules. A new general rule would overrule an old general rule, but it wouldn't overrule an old specific rule. Apples and Oranges. ;)
 


JoeNotCharles

First Post
I know JoeNotCharles and ScorpiusRisk are also, they're noted as inactive, but that's likely just not updated.

I'm still inactive as far as judging goes: I barely have time to keep up with the ggames I'm playing amnd DM'ing in, without doing anything extra.
 

Iron Sky

Procedurally Generated
I'm still inactive as far as judging goes: I barely have time to keep up with the ggames I'm playing amnd DM'ing in, without doing anything extra.

I'm marginally active. Don't have the time at the moment to do much judging or DMing. I can always jump in to evaluate XP/GP rewards though if anyone wants to "@" me.
 

Odd that you see it this way. That is a general item rule stating that the item has to be wielded or used as opposed to the specific rule about weapons. I'm not seeing where a general items rule trumps a specific weapon items rule (which is not applicable to any other items, just weapons).

Shouldn't then item specification trump everything else? If the above is true, there shouldn't be any "if you attack with this weapon" since that would be implied. Insted, there should be relatively few that state "this effect/property/power works even if the weapon is not used in the attack.
 

Neurotic

I plan on living forever. Or die trying.
Although this didn't start as a proposal, there are enough judges following this to allow or disallow this. Exact rules aren't the real issue here, just whether this particular combination can work on the boards.

May I suggest judges to vote and be done with it? Unless, of course, someone contacted WotC support and got their ruling?

[MENTION=87106]MetaVoid[/MENTION], similar to the thread about Rhythm blade, you should open the thread for this kind of discussion. It's not the rule or anything, but later it will be easier to find if needed then finding post 2040 in general discussion thread.

Wasn't there some rule about 1000 post limit on the thread before?
 

renau1g

First Post
There used to be a limit on posts in a thread but with the new server (or software or something techie stuff is above my head) that's not an issue any more. Technically there hasn't been a proposal yet so there's nothing to vote on and also, I think only Ozy & I have commented, sg and KD are judges in LEB.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Shouldn't then item specification trump everything else? If the above is true, there shouldn't be any "if you attack with this weapon" since that would be implied. Insted, there should be relatively few that state "this effect/property/power works even if the weapon is not used in the attack.

One cannot use this type of "why would the designer write x unless the default rule was y" type of logic to infer rules.


Look at the sequence of events time-wise:

1) The weapon rule was originally implied (via the Holy Avenger example in the PHB).

2) The designers released the AV weapon rule within 3 months of the game coming out. Since then, the AV rule has been the explicit rule.

3) The vast majority of the weapons ever created with that phrase in them were designed while the AV weapon rule was in effect.

4) The Essentials item rule came out (months or years after many of those items were created) and ensured that all items had to be worn or wielded (one cannot have the item in one's bag of holding for the property of the item to work).


The AV rule was in effect practically since the beginning, but the designers still wrote those types of phrases into many weapons. In fact, they even went back and erratta-ed weapons for this. The Staff of Ruin is found in AV and they went back and erratta-ed a weapon found in the same book as the rule.

Are you claiming that even though the AV weapon rule was in effect all of that time, that the designers were writing and erratta-ing that phrase into weapons because that rule was NOT in effect?

No, the designers wrote that phrase in those weapons for clarity sake. They did it so that people would just read the property of the weapon and be clear on how it worked without having to look up an obscure rule that was not explicitly written down in the PHB, but could only be found in a splat book. That rule cannot even be found online in the Compendium.

So, your logic is backwards. The reason that phrase is written down in so many weapons is because that is the default (but somewhat obscure) rule. It didn't stop being the rule because Essentials came out.

Quite frankly, the reason the designers created the rule in the first place was for magic consistency and game balance. It doesn't make sense that one could use the charge property of an Avalanche Hammer for the Bastard Sword that one is actually using, just because one is holding the hammer in one's off hand. That's a property of the hammer, not the sword, and should only apply to hammer attacks. Plus, this prevents players from stacking effects from multiple weapons. Ditto for a Prime Shot weapon.

One shouldn't be able to stack the effects from multiple weapons or multiple implements simultaneously. This rule prevents it. And adding it as the default rule for PBP will just open up a loophole for some other multi-weapon or implement combo that nobody is thinking of at the moment.
 

Mewness

First Post
While L4W uses all the rules, we try to use them in an accessible way, and that means not requiring people to know stuff that's tucked into books that they might not have.

Meaning that if there's a generally applicable rule in the Adventurer's Vault and it's still important, it ought to have been reprinted in the Rules Compendium, like all other generally applicable rules. That fact that it is not there is either a massive oversight or an indication that the designers didn't want it to be that way after all.

Either way, people shouldn't be expected to play by rules they can't see. If we want there to be a general rule that limits properties to the attacking weapon/implement only, it should be put in a proposal so that everyone has access to it.
 

Remove ads

Top