LA Question

[kitcik]

Okay, how about this:

Size: Medium
Type: Outsider (Native)
Ability Adjustment: +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, –2 Strength
Base Speed: 40 feet

Immunity to magic sleep effects
+2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

Low-light Vision
Dark Vision 60ft

Weapon Proficiency: Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, Spot, and Hide checks.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su):

Shadow "Jaunt" (Su): 40 ft. Same as Shadow Jump (Su), but limited to a single daily use.

Fast Healing 2 (In any conditions other than full daylight)

Secret Door Search

Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any unrestricted.

Favored Class: Rogue

Alignment: Usually Neutral

My feeling is LA +3 but you should get a 2nd opinion...

 

[Helmed]

I am looking for honest criticism. "Judgmental" is what I want.

I want to keep a Shadow-theme, but am pretty flexible on just how it will work. Hence the quick change from shadow blend, jump, and HiPS.

The catch is the Fast Healing. It has to stay.

Does anyone know of a PC acceptable race (Source must be WotC / Paizo's Dragon Mag)with fast healing and low LA?

I might be able to change a few features around to get close to what I am seeking.

 

[Jimlock]

I am looking for honest criticism. "Judgmental" is what I want.

ok... prepare yourself then...

The catch is the Fast Healing. It has to stay.

As I said, I like the general theme.

My problem is (and therefore the high LA) that you bring into the race an almost entire PrC.

HIPS and Shadow Jump (and Darkvision) are the two most powerful abilities the Shadowdancer gets.

With a race that gives you all normal elf traits, you also get a Shadowdancer (HIPS, SJ, DV) plus another +2 on one of the two useful-for-what-this-race-will-serve abilities, plus Fast Healing, plus a +10 on base speed plus this minor +2 on Hide checks, plus a very useful Favorite Class at the expense of a -2 in STR, which for what these guys will do, is no big deal.

I guess my main beef is with the free Shadowdancer... perhaps because I like this PrC so much that I don't want to see it traded off so cheaply.

Perhaps what you need for your theme:

Gray Elf House Ahali
Descendents of shadow-stuff infused elves, Ahali are the "world spies" of the Gray elves.

is more of a PrC than an actual Race... or perhaps both.

I say all the above because I myself have created an Elven House of spies destined to protect elven interests on Faerun, and I based it all on a PrC. (If you are interested, heres the link of the PrC, a taste of the fluff on page two of the thread)

Just my two cents.

 

[the Jester]

DO NOT use the feral template as a comparison. It is vastly under-rated in terms of LA.

Fast healing is too good to keep this race at +1 IMHO. I'd call this +2 and allow an early buy-off of one level's worth (the buy-off rules are in Unearthed Arcana).

 

[Greenfield]

SRD Note: An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

If you say so.

The spell descriptions in the SRD don't make that distinction. That's what I was going by. If there's something else that supersedes that, I missed it.

 

[Helmed]

If this is still considered LA +2, how much further (skill bump, minor special ability, etc ) can I take it before it hits +3.

Ahali
Size / Type: Medium Outsider (Native)
Ability Adjustment: +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, –2 Strength
Base Speed: 30 feet; +10 (In any conditions other than full daylight)
Immunity to magic sleep effects
+2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

Weapon Proficiency: Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, Spot.
+2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently.
Secret Door Search
Low-light Vision
Dark Vision 60ft

Fast Healing 2 (In any conditions other than full daylight)

Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any unrestricted.
Favored Class: Rogue
Alignment: Usually Neutral

 

[Empirate]

I don't really get how the original proposal is supposed to be +3... three class levels down is so huge, nobody will ever be playing that race unless the DM hands out free LA for everybody. Even then, some +1 LA races wipe the floor with this one in many regards. You don't even get any decent stat mods here.

Let's look at what you get on top of normal Elf stuff:
Fast Healing 2 (situational, but easily obtained) warrants some LA, sure, but on its own it's not much to write home about. It won't win you fights, it will just save you money on wands of CLW. There is still some contention if it even works once you're at negative HP, making it a dubious lifesaver, as well.
Darkvision, wow. That's so common it isn't even funny. Much of the time, low-light vision will be much more useful, anyway. Not worth much on its own.
Stat mods look like you could get those with some LA+0 Elf subspecies, so no further consideration of these.
Shadow Blend, now this is excellent. Suddenly that situational fast healing looks like it'll let you be one hell of a hit-and-run guy.
All in all, LA+2 for sure, no more, no less.

Even with those excellent abilities, losing two class levels hurts majorly and practically precludes full casters outright. Anything that hopes to be in a fight at one point or another will also severely hurt for feats. Even with the Int bump, skillmonkeying is hard when you miss two levels of skillpoints. This race is for you-can't-touch-me, I-can't-touch-you builds.


Tangents:

Everybody bringing Savage Species into the discussion disqualify themselves by the very fact that they do so. One of the most horrible 3.x books ever.

Couldn't you just use the excellent and IMO nicely balanced Dark template (Tome of Magic, LA+1)? It seems to do most of what you want it to. Apply to your favorite subspecies of Elf, and you're done.

 

[kitcik]

If this is still considered LA +2, how much further (skill bump, minor special ability, etc ) can I take it before it hits +3.

Ahali
Size / Type: Medium Outsider (Native)
Ability Adjustment: +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, –2 Strength
Base Speed: 30 feet; +10 (In any conditions other than full daylight)
Immunity to magic sleep effects
+2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

Weapon Proficiency: Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, Spot.
+2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently.
Secret Door Search
Low-light Vision
Dark Vision 60ft

Fast Healing 2 (In any conditions other than full daylight)

Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any unrestricted.
Favored Class: Rogue
Alignment: Usually Neutral

With no Shadow Blend, no HIPS and no Shadow Jump, I think this is only an ok LA +1 (speed + fast healing, lots of skill +). I think you could add HIPS or Shadow Jump and make it LA +2, probably could throw in something small as well. As [MENTION=78958]Empirate[/MENTION] said, losing a class level is major.

Shadow Blend, however, is very powerful and would make it +3 IMHO.

I don't really get how the original proposal is supposed to be +3... three class levels down is so huge, nobody will ever be playing that race unless the DM hands out free LA for everybody. Even then, some +1 LA races wipe the floor with this one in many regards. You don't even get any decent stat mods here.

Shadow Blend, now this is excellent. Suddenly that situational fast healing looks like it'll let you be one hell of a hit-and-run guy.
All in all, LA+2 for sure, no more, no less.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think you undervalue Shadow Blend.
- all your attacks are sneak attacks (except in full daylight)
- you always have a 50% miss chance (ditto)
- cannot be dispelled
- not a hit-and-run guy, but a 'hit-and-hit cuz you can't hit me' guy

Extremely powerful.

 

[Empirate]

Sure, Shadow Blend is good, but a Daylight spell (only a level higher than Glitterdust and See Invisible, for the Greater Invisibility comparison, and only needs one spell) takes care of it just fine. For a PC, Shadow Blend and Greater Invisibility are roughly on par, I think. It's good, but it doesn't warrant more than +1 LA on its own. Worth a class level? Sure. Worth two? Not really, IMO.