'Lack of Heroism'

[James the Newbie]

Another approach is to put the pressure on. They aren't biting on plot hooks? Then stop using plot hooks and bring on the plot shark instead. Nothing gets a bunch of apathetic PCs motivated like having the bad guys come after them, personally. Be sure to drop some clues for them to follow up on, and be prepared for their initial reaction to be, "Let's skip town." This reaction is reasonable and should buy them some time, but make it clear that it's only a temporary reprieve until the bad guys pick up their trail. At which point, in the words of Aragorn, "They will come on you in the wild, in some dark place where there is no help."

Thankyou everyone for all your advice and good ideas. Each person gave me some kind of inspiration, if I thanked everyone personally id be worried one of you would miss yours, so a big thank you overall!

'A big bad guy' chasing them idea, that is an idea that I like. At the moment there is a capitol, and its fairly safe, if filled with very odd people, if that where to become dangerous, maybe the PC's would start taking some more risks. So a special thanks for that idea

 

[Janx]

Here's some general advice:

when you use the word "plot" avoid interpretations of "make the players do XYZ" This can drive some players to rebelliousness, where if they fee like they're being forced to do something, they'll do everything in their power to stop it.

Do set up plot hooks that present opportunities/problems that the players would be interested in. It sounds like you tried that with the "cave of treasure" for them.

Danger levels: your players seem risk averse. This might be tied to a misunderstanding of the difficulty level of the encounters. Or they really are chickens who just want to bully low level monsters around. I think to handle the latter, some transparency in how you design encounters might help (that doesn't mean show them your notes). For your game system, learn how the party level/composition compares to varyling levels of Challenge Rating or Encounter Level and generally stick to a system where are chosen from a certain range, based on party level.

In this way, monsters will be no toughter than X, which is known to be hard but not impossible to beat. At that point, players know that every encounter is beatable IF they use their brains. Rather than assuming every encounter is impossible and thus is to be avoided.

This advice doesn't always apply, the party COULD go looking for trouble with a monster that is "impossible" to beat. That's their problem, especially if youve described how tough the monster is. The party could anger something that is MUCH more powerful and it decides to go after them.

But for your planned content, having a range you work with helps maintain game balance for the party.

Consequences: One way to reign in "evil" game play is to reward good deeds and punish bad ones. I don't mean sending out a grudge monster designed to kill them. But generally, the players should see negative reactions from NPCs, police out to get them, and more powerful enemies are looking for them. You might preamble their first "not nice" deed with an anonymous public demonstration. Show the reaction of the townspeople to their act, where the townspeople don't know the party did it. If the players see upset women crying over their lost men or some suffering because of a lost food shipment that they disturbed, they MIGHT see that their actions have consequences and be more careful. Or they'll take glee in it. In which case you've identified your sociopathic players.

If you don't want to run an evil campaign, and have "evil" players, but you still want to game together, I recommend finding a way to steer clear of heroic plots that they will rebel against and "evil" opportunities that they will revel in while disgusting you.

Dungeon crawling seems to be the solution for such social misfits. What happens in the dungeon tends to stay in the dungeon, the party comes out, sells their loot (and don't yank their chain on anything, lest they massacre your town). Then they go back in for more dungeon adventure.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I wouldn't do ANYTHING without talking to them first.

You and your players seem to have very different ideas of what sort of game you want to play, and if you keep trying to bend them to playing what you want to play, you'll just shift things around so that they're unhappy instead of you.

You seem to want to have a heroic adventure game -- which is fine, and something I like running as a DM myself. They, in turn, seem to want to do something a little more Conan or Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser -- which is classic D&D as well.

You're not going to get Conan to reliably act like a hero: He wants gold, booze and women, not necessarily in that order. He's never going to be Aragorn.

I'd see if that is indeed what they want, then decide if you see any appeal in running that sort of game and THEN, if you do, start to figure out what that game would look like. In some ways, it's easier -- grand plots just don't matter -- but in other ways, it's harder, since they'll want lots of targets of opportunity. (In the old days, lots of players ended up robbing townsfolk in the village of Hommlett or in Restenford to scratch their not-heroic itch.)

 

[scourger]

Something about D&D brings out that style of play. I suggest a new game in a different genre.

 

[blargney the second]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

They failed to clear a dungeon? The remaining denizens track the PCs, following them back to town, leaving big obvious tracks themselves. Bad Stuff happens.
-blarg

 

[trancejeremy]

That's actually the thing about D&D - it's not necessarily about a "plot" or "story". It could be, but for years the main idea was that it was something of a sandbox.

Unfortunately, this lack of structure can sometimes bring out the worst in players.

Then again, many of the stories that inspired D&D were not particularly heroic. Cugel the Clever is one of the most self-centered (and IMHO, unlikeable) characters in adventure fiction. The Gray Mouser and Fahfrd weren't much better. Conan mellows out when he becomes king, but before that was a thoroughly villainous character.

(Heck, if you look at The Rogues Gallery for 1e AD&D, a lot of the early characters played were evil or selfish.)

But the most important thing about doing plots is getting the players involved in them.

Like this plot about them chasing a necromancer.

If you just tell them at the start of the campaign "You're chasing this evil necromancer" it's a lot harder to get into than if you start off the game showing why they are.

Make it about something else at first. Something selfish. Then have the necromancer come in and steal their prize or kill favorite NPCs (or turn 'em into zombies).

A good example is the original Indiana Jones movie. In the first scene we see Indiana Jones go through all that trouble to get the golden idol, only to have it snatched away by his rival.

Of course, the trick is to do it without being (or seeming) unfair.

 

[Grogg of the North]

In the very first game I ran, I had the PCs see a lieutenant of the BBEG demanding that a local town pay tribute to her master and swear allegiance. My thought was "Oh, surely the heroes will run off to save these townsfolk from their oppression". I was wrong. Dead wrong. In fact the group looked at me and said "No. She's scary. Lets go hunt pirates!"

Before, or after, your next session there are three questions you need to ask your players.

1) What do you like about the game?
2) What do you not like the game?
3) What would you have me do differently?

If you can get a meaningful conversation out of those three questions, then you can create a great game and group. In fact, I still frequently send that out as Homework in my campaign newsletters. Just remember that a conversation goes both ways so your players have to listen to you too! And if everyone starts talking, pull out a stuffed animal or something. You can't talk unless you're holding it. It may seem silly but its effective.

If you can, try to run the group as mercenaries. Maybe they're just part of a guild of adventurers. Maybe they get hired on to work for the King's army and deal with your mentioned goblin chief. But if shinies is what motivates them, give them shinies. And if they go back on a deal, then you can have army or assassins chase them for a while. This will let you still have a plot other than "Random Dungeon #2346" since you can try to connect the jobs. Who knows, maybe the group will put the pieces together and take the initiative.

If you go the mercenary route then I would highly suggest that at the end of each adventure have the quartermaster or whomever present the PCs with two or three "jobs". Let the party pick one and then prepare it. Yea, it may be a lot of work on you all at once, but I've been there and I know that this will save you more of a headache later on. Besides, I'm sure everyone here will gladly help with ideas.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The issue with this group is overall, that if I wanted to make a town under threat from a goblin chief or some such thing, my party would be the sort to go "Hmmm sounds do dangerous" which makes me almost question the point of DMing.

I would really appreciate any tips on how to make players feel more engaged, as I don't think that it is necessarily them, but maybe the way I'm running the plot.

As a rule of thumb, when players are not into taking hooks, it is kind of on them to work toward something. It sounds like they have sort of done that by taking an interest in being highway men. I imagine the reason they wont save the town isn't just the danger but also because they are not terribly intested in saving innocent people from monsters, so throwing those scenarios at them will just be an excercize in futility unless you tie the adventure to their prefered activity: being highway men.

They have actually done half the work for you by going after a clear campaign goal. Build on that and tie foes and conflicts to it. Perhaps they run into trouble with a local warlord or theives guild when they loot something that belonged to someone else or acquire a poweful object others covet. Maybe they go too far in their highway men activity and a band of adventurers are brougt in to bring them to justice. You could go in a number pf interesting directions with this.

Just like you will have a hard time pressuring players who prefer heroics to play an evil campaign, it is very difficult to talk rogueish players into playing heroes. Have you thought of taking a city adventure angle? Stuff like intrigue and mystery can work well with morally ambiguous parties.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The issue with this group is overall, that if I wanted to make a town under threat from a goblin chief or some such thing, my party would be the sort to go "Hmmm sounds do dangerous" which makes me almost question the point of DMing.

Entice them. Offer what they want, such as a promise of a lot of treasure without too much danger. Then it turns out there's more danger and less treasure. This has the added benefit of surprise, the second act downturn from the three act structure. This is basically how old school Gygaxian D&D is supposed to work.

Another way to entice them would be with mysteries - the odd behaviour of a goblin spy for instance - or simply some smaller event, such as a fight with a goblin scouting party, that leads into the threat to the town.

 

[Ironhead]

To build on what Bedrock said, why not allow the PCs to follow their highwaymen dreams to the point of becoming major players in the hometown scene? Trying to become top dog in an already established pecking order could be difficult, especially against say, a local tavern owner who might have a deal with the goblin tribe on the edge of town to provide them with careless travelers who disappear from his establishment. Perhaps his bouncers are actually the muscle that turns the gears behind the scenes in what the PCs had thought was a sleepy little town. There are lots of plot options to let them go their own way while still guiding the story your way. History is full of not entirely wholesome characters who eventually did heroic things, even when they originally had no greater ambition than personal gain.