"Lawful" Bards

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Neither is 'Always Lawful Evil', but I'm away from my MM and don't have access to the 'Always doesn't mean Always' quote.

And I can't find it in the SRD, either ...

Basically, for the OP, it's something like, "Always: Creatures with an alignment type of 'Always' exhibit such an alignment in the overwhelming majority of cases. Exceptions may exist, but they are unique or one-in-a-million individuals."

 

[Jdvn1]

Hm, Bard Wererat might be about one-in-a-million.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Wouldn't that change the balor's type? Y'know, he'd go from "Large Outside (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)" to something like, "Large Outside (Lawful, Extraplanar, Good)" or something?

Nope.

A Balor is: "Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)", and almost always has an alignment of Chaotic Evil.

Which means that, should he be redeemed and become a Paladin, he'd become: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil), with a Lawful Good alignment.

He'd respond positively to Detect Evil (Evil subtype Outsider), Detect Chaos (Chaotic subtype Outsider), Detect Law (Lawful-aligned creature), and Detect Good (Paladin and Good-aligned creature).

Pretty crazy, eh?

 

[Jdvn1]

From the glossary:

Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

 

[Jdvn1]

Nope.

A Balor is: "Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)", and almost always has an alignment of Chaotic Evil.

Which means that, should he be redeemed and become a Paladin, he'd become: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil), with a Lawful Good alignment.

He'd respond positively to Detect Evil (Evil subtype Outsider), Detect Chaos (Chaotic subtype Outsider), Detect Law (Lawful-aligned creature), and Detect Good (Paladin and Good-aligned creature).

Pretty crazy, eh?

Yeah, pretty crazy.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yeah, pretty crazy.

You know what's funnier?

Look at the results you get from each spell:

Glraxz-trath, Reformed Balor Paladin (Balor 20 / Paladin 1), Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)

Spell: Aura Strength

Detect Evil: Overwhelming (Evil Subtype Outside, 11+ Hit Dice)
Detect Chaos: Overwhelming (Chaotic Subtype Outside, 11+ Hit Dice)
Detect Law: Moderate (Lawful Creature, 11-25 Hit Dice)
Detect Good: Moderate (Good Creature, 11-25 Hit Dice), Faint (Paladin 1)

So, he's a Paladin, but he radiates much more strongly in the Chaotic and Evil spectrums.

 

[Jdvn1]

So he'd hate himself.

Also:
"I want to see if evil is around -- I detect evil."
"You see a huge spot of it right nearby!"
"What? I can't see it? I'm looking frantically!"
"It's you."
"... Stupid GMs..."
" "

 

[Darkness]

Detect Evil: Overwhelming (Evil Subtype Outside, 11+ Hit Dice)
Detect Chaos: Overwhelming (Chaotic Subtype Outside, 11+ Hit Dice)
Detect Law: Moderate (Lawful Creature, 11-25 Hit Dice)
Detect Good: Moderate (Good Creature, 11-25 Hit Dice), Faint (Paladin 1)

Are you sure a good outsider, for the purposes of detect good, is only one with the good subtype?

Same for the other alignments, of course. E.g., to use evil examples, an efreeti or a rakshasa doesn't count?

Detect evil doesn't mention subtype - just "evil outsider."

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Are you sure a good outsider, for the purposes of detect good, is only one with the good subtype?

I'm pretty sure that's what it means.

For instance:

Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

I can certainly see your point, however. Maybe my PoV bears revising.

Basically, your PoV is that an Outsider with an Evil subtype always responds on the Evil Outsider line, as does any Outsider that currently has an Evil alignment. (And so forth for the other Detect spells.)

I've always felt, however, that those lines referred to creatures of the appropriate subtypes. Thus, a being made of Evil stuff - like a demon - will react more strongly to a Detect Evil than something which is Evil, but made of, say, Fire stuff (like a Salamander).

I can see it going both ways, however.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Basically, your PoV is that an Outsider with an Evil subtype always responds on the Evil Outsider line, as does any Outsider that currently has an Evil alignment. (And so forth for the other Detect spells.)

I'd phrase it, personally, as "Any outsider with an evil alignment is an evil outsider", with the note that "Any creature with the Evil subtype is considered to have an evil alignment for the purpose of effects that depend on alignment".

Is he an outsider? Is he evil? Fine, he's an evil outsider, so Detect Evil registers him as an evil outsider.

If he's an outsider, but he isn't evil, but he has the Evil subtype, then Detect Evil (an effect that depends on alignment) considers him evil, so it will register him as an evil outsider.

-Hyp.