LEB Discussion Thread '10

[Velmont]

River have been using the Battle Standard, and the output is really not 25 hp per combat. If it gives 5 hp during a combat, it's good.

- Because not everyone is hurt when a healing surge is spend.
- Because not everyone is under the effect of the standard, as it rarely put in the center of the field, as River generally doesn't stand in the middle of the combat field, but behind the line.
- Because putting it in take a standard action, which River doesn't always have the time to do.
- Because the standard, once place somewhere, doesn't move.

At first sight, I would say I would prefer that symbol (holy nimbus) over my symbol of recovery, and just that tickle me as the symbol being a powerful one. Overpowered? I would need to test it.

Renaug1, could you give a symbol of holy nimbus to River

 

[KarinsDad]

River have been using the Battle Standard, and the output is really not 25 hp per combat. If it gives 5 hp during a combat, it's good.

- Because not everyone is hurt when a healing surge is spend.
- Because not everyone is under the effect of the standard, as it rarely put in the center of the field, as River generally doesn't stand in the middle of the combat field, but behind the line.
- Because putting it in take a standard action, which River doesn't always have the time to do.
- Because the standard, once place somewhere, doesn't move.

Although these are good points, the advantages of the Standard cannot be overlooked.


Granted, the last encounter was spread all over the place, but in the first encounter that Sheeva was in, River put the Standard in the back where it could only affect 3 PCs out of 6 for the most part and in the second encounter, it was never used although Lan went unconscious twice.

In the first encounter in the adventure on the ship, it healed 4 points in the first round it was used (Lan was both fully healed and out of range of the Standard for most of the fight), 4 in the second, and 4 in the third for 12 (and presumably more while healing after the fight) and that didn't look like that tough of a fight. But throw a single Healer's Mercy and we can be talking 20 hit points from one power in a single round.

Most encounter locations are in 8x8 or smaller areas. The Standard will affect an 11x11. Place it in the middle on round one and then stay there to prevent any foes from grabbing it is a better strategy than hanging in the back and hoping it helps. And of course, it helps if your fellow PCs take advantage of it and stay in range as often as possible.

But the real advantage of the Battle Standard is not in simple dinky n level encounters that are finished in 3 rounds. It's in n+1, n+2 and more potent encounters where not only the Leader is healing, but PCs are taking Second Winds as well.

The amount of additional healing it would do over the Symbol of Holy Nimbus is substantial in those scenarios when it is really needed.

Just because renau1g doesn't throw tough "OH CRAP" scenarios at us doesn't mean that he couldn't. I've actually considered the encounters he has thrown at us fairly average and would greatly enjoy an n+4 that makes people sweat.

 

[Velmont]

Having played with River and Artemus, who is in Knoepf groups, two heavy healers, up to now, I have see only 1 encounter where Healer's Mercy gave more than 2 HS.

The standard have a much better potential, but the holy symbol is a lot more easier to use, which make it more useful in my eyes.

 

[renau1g]

Just because renau1g doesn't throw tough "OH CRAP" scenarios at us doesn't mean that he couldn't. I've actually considered the encounters he has thrown at us fairly average and would greatly enjoy an n+4 that makes people sweat.

The first leg of the adventure (which you're just wrapping up) is a bit more on the easy side. I wanted to ensure that people got used to using their PC's before throwing harder encounters out there. The very first encounter with the sahaguins was n+3, the one in the town was n, bugbear one was n, tentacled one was n+3, and the last one is n+1.

I was amazed how easy the last one turned out, but the enemies just didn't do enough damage to really threaten you.

 

[KarinsDad]

Having played with River and Artemus, who is in Knoepf groups, two heavy healers, up to now, I have see only 1 encounter where Healer's Mercy gave more than 2 HS.

The standard have a much better potential, but the holy symbol is a lot more easier to use, which make it more useful in my eyes.

I don't disagree that the Symbol is easier to use. I do disagree that it is overpowered when I compare it to many other game elements.


The encounter where Knoepf used it was an n+1 encounter (plus the DM's dice were pretty warm in the first 2 rounds). I'm not sure River has been in many of those type encounters.

Pros and Cons. The additional 8 temp hit points is no big deal considering that Sheeva has a lower level item that gives her 5 temp hit points per encounter. The extra healing surge from the symbol will rarely come into play. Most encounters it will never happen and even if it does, if a 20 is rolled by the Cleric in round one or round two and nobody needs a full blown healing surge heal, it's wasted.


Is it your opinion that the Symbol is too overpowered? I was just using the Standard to illustrate that the Symbol is not overpowered. Nice, but hardly broken.

 

[KarinsDad]

The first leg of the adventure (which you're just wrapping up) is a bit more on the easy side. I wanted to ensure that people got used to using their PC's before throwing harder encounters out there. The very first encounter with the sahaguins was n+3, the one in the town was n, bugbear one was n, tentacled one was n+3, and the last one is n+1.

I was amazed how easy the last one turned out, but the enemies just didn't do enough damage to really threaten you.

It's not the amount of damage the enemies threw at us, it's the amount we threw at them. The encounter lasted 3.5 rounds because the PCs pummeled the monsters (granted, the hounds could have stuck around for another round or two instead of running, but that would have just been mop up).

I do think that most of the players here on LEB have more capable PCs (i.e. better powers, items, and feats) and tactics/synergies than the average player and group has. Once they get used to their PCs, the DM can throw an n+3 at them (like the n+3 tentacle one which actually only lasted about 4 or 5 rounds as well) and it doesn't really phase them.

If you'd like to throw harder encounters at us in the second leg (or even many harder encounters in a single day), it's all good in my book.

 

[CaBaNa]

don't forget, the holy nimbus property applies to both "you and each ally within 5 squares of you"... and "gain(s) temporary hit points"

Not just one ally.

 

[CaBaNa]

Cheers,

It should be noted that Neurotic is having connectivity issues, and that for the next few hours/days may not be able to post. His provider has not been able to specify as of yet how long the outage will be.

Thank you,

CaBaNa


P.s. I'll be attempting to update as many things as possible today, if I'm holding you up somewhere, feel free to PM me.

 

[KarinsDad]

don't forget, the holy nimbus property applies to both "you and each ally within 5 squares of you"... and "gain(s) temporary hit points"

Not just one ally.

Ah. I totally misread that as "you or an ally". That changes things quite a bit. Cha+1 temp hit points = 1 to 5 temp hit points or ~3 or 4 per PC for a total of 15 to 20 temp hit points (25 if an uber 18 Cha Cleric) if 5 PCs are in range, twice per encounter.

That's about 3 to 4 extra second winds (without defense bonuses) per encounter. On the other hand, those temp hit points do not stack with other temp hit points, so it is likely that some will be lost each encounter. Not only with other PC temp hit points from other sources, but also when Healing Word is cast twice, any remaining temp hit points from the first casting that were not used will not override.

All in all, it's probably about 30 to 40 extra hit points per encounter at level 4(between the non-stacking temp hit points negating the extra healing surge every 4 or 5 encounters).

With the healing boosts that most healers have, that is like adding an additional 1.5 Healing Words per encounter spread out over the entire group.

That is potent.

 

[renau1g]

Excellent, well I now know what River won't be getting