LEB Discussion Thread '10

[KarinsDad]

Burning Hands and Shock Sphere are pretty strong now. The Encounter Shock Sphere is almost as powerful as the Daily Fireball used to be.

I can see a lot of low level Wizards opting for damage over control.

In fact, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning. It looks like WotC wants to reinforce elemental type Wizards.

It's as if they gave up on increasing the control of Wizards in favor of increasing their damage.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah I saw that change, it seems like sorcerers and wizards will share a lot more similarities now.

 

[evilbob]

I dunno, it seems like other wizard powers got toned down slightly. I'd call it more rebalancing than a power boost. I still can't believe they have never changed Stinking Cloud - it's still the best level 5 power in the game.

The BIG hit to wizards is the (finally - we knew it was coming) change so that weapon focus no longer works on implements. That's a 1/2/3 damage reduction right there.

I've always thought of wizards as sort of off-strikers, but frankly I'd hesitate to say that much anymore. To me, wizards had the problem of having amazing dailies and horrid encounter powers, so hopefully this will fix part of that problem.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah the game-changing dailies rock, but Ashir, my L4W wizard struggles to find a level 1 encounter power to use regularly. The encounter power selection is pretty weak.

 

[KarinsDad]

The BIG hit to wizards is the (finally - we knew it was coming) change so that weapon focus no longer works on implements. That's a 1/2/3 damage reduction right there.

Yeah. 1/2/3 on an area effect can be 3/6/9. Not that Wizards cannot find boosts to damage other ways (Dual Implement Spellcaster which is 1/2/3/4/5/6, Destructive Wizardry 2/3/4, etc.).

I'm not seeing that they were nerfed that badly here, especially considering that not every Wizard used to take Weapon Focus (some Wizards actually used Orbs or Wands or Tomes ).

I've always thought of wizards as sort of off-strikers, but frankly I'd hesitate to say that much anymore. To me, wizards had the problem of having amazing dailies and horrid encounter powers, so hopefully this will fix part of that problem.

I do see this new concept of "many Wizard encounter powers having an effect on a miss" as watering down feats like War Wizardry for Wizards (but not watering it down for Sorcerers).

I never considered Wizard Encounter powers to be horrid. They just aren't heavy damage or especially great control. But, they aren't horrid. Icy Terrain in round one could take away an attack by multiple foes for an entire round in addition to doing some damage to multiple foes. How is Icy Terrain hitting two foes for a total of 7 damage each and taking those foes out for a round horrid whereas a Fighter's same level Spinning Sweep hitting two foes for a total of 8 damage each and only knocking them prone good?

The main problem with Wizard powers is that most of what they can do with control powers, some other non-controller classes can do and Sorcerers do more damage with all powers. Wizard's Control Fu is sometimes weak grasshopper unless they are using a Daily power.

Yeah the game-changing dailies rock, but Ashir, my L4W wizard struggles to find a level 1 encounter power to use regularly. The encounter power selection is pretty weak.

I don't know what At Will powers Ashir has, but Grasping Shadows on the Fighter marked foes in the front line combined with Phantom Bolt (or even Thunderwave) can be nice.

Charm of Misplaced Wrath is pretty nice too, although it is not multiple targets.

I think the real issue is that some classes in the splat books have powers that are just a tad bit nicer than classes in the original PHB. So, people compare and suddenly find some of the original classes to be a bit lacking.

 

[renau1g]

Ashir's a genasi with Elemental Empowerment, so he's pretty focused on elemental spells, so he has Thunderwave and Scorching Burst. His encounter at level 1 is burning hands, which is a tad difficult to get off (the only time he's caught 3 in it he missed them all)

 

[evilbob]

The main problem with Wizard powers is that most of what they can do with control powers, some other non-controller classes can do and Sorcerers do more damage with all powers. Wizard's Control Fu is sometimes weak grasshopper unless they are using a Daily power.
...
I think the real issue is that some classes in the splat books have powers that are just a tad bit nicer than classes in the original PHB. So, people compare and suddenly find some of the original classes to be a bit lacking.

Completely agree on both counts. Wizards really need either more damage or more control; right now they are sort of "meh" at both (except dailies), and they just don't compare favorably with other (especially newer) classes.

 

[Luinnar]

I love leading with color spray in encounters with my Wizard. Daze + damage vs will first turn with blast 5 or 6 is really nice for disabling a large group of enemies.

I could never find a use for grasping shadows so far. I'm thinking of swapping it out once Mythra reaches level 5.

 

[KarinsDad]

I love leading with color spray in encounters with my Wizard. Daze + damage vs will first turn with blast 5 or 6 is really nice for disabling a large group of enemies.

The problem with this strategy is that multiple bad guys then charge and nearly auto-hit Mythra and he is hurting for the rest of the encounter (and this strategy then uses up a lot of Mythra's healing surges in a single encounter).

A slightly better strategy is to a) move in, b) color spray, and c) action point to fey step to the back of the group. That way, the dazed foes cannot get to Mythra before the defenders can go in and lock them down. Alternatively, if the group just lets Mythra go first in inititiative and then the group moves past Mythra to protect him, this works as well. But, with the timing of PBP, it's sometimes harder to achieve this.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

The BIG hit to wizards is the (finally - we knew it was coming) change so that weapon focus no longer works on implements. That's a 1/2/3 damage reduction right there.

I'm pretty sure Implement Focus is about to be added, so no, not really. I hope they don't do the same thing to all the racial weapon focus feats. But maybe they should, as my Githzerai Swordmage has been putting out some impressive damage (this is a lie).

I never considered Wizard Encounter powers to be horrid. They just aren't heavy damage or especially great control. But, they aren't horrid. Icy Terrain in round one could take away an attack by multiple foes for an entire round in addition to doing some damage to multiple foes. How is Icy Terrain hitting two foes for a total of 7 damage each and taking those foes out for a round horrid whereas a Fighter's same level Spinning Sweep hitting two foes for a total of 8 damage each and only knocking them prone good?

The person (doesn't Spinning Sweep only target one enemy?) knocked down by the fighter are most likely starting their turn adjacent to and marked by the fighter. They'll probably be spending their turn standing up and attacking the fighter in melee. The people knocked down by Icy Terrain can, after standing up, charge or use ranged attacks against anyone within range. Of course, the fighter could move in after Icy Terrain has been cast, but to me it feels like Spinning Sweep works well on its own, while Icy Terrain needs something else to go with it. But I feel that way about the prone condition in general: not great on its own, good when combined with something else (like an adjacent fighter).

I do like Icy Terrain but unlike, say, Maze of Mirrors, you can't just fire it off and know you've done something awesome.