D&D 5E Let's discuss the Mystic v.3

Erechel

Explorer
While I was waiting a long time for it (i need to cover the needs of a high level psionic for my campaigns) I have to say that the mystic took a long way from the V.2, so I understand most of the time of waiting. I'm going to detail my first impressions about it, both as an entirely new class and in comparison with the v.2.

I will highlight a few topics that capture my interest:

* There is no mention of psionics and magic to be different. This was one major mechanic earlier, and one that fits archetypes like the wu-jen in this one.

*Psychic focus

*The relation between disciplines and archetypes and its lack of meat.

*Major rework of the Immortal

*Armor & Weapon proficiencies

*New Archetypes.

*There is no major and minor disciplines anymore. All disciplines are available from level 1.

*
Past level 10.

Lets go


1. Magic and Psionics:
Jeremy Crawford tweeted that in this version, psionics are a form of magic. I see this as a massive step backwards from earlier versions, and I was actually fond of psionics being a different kind of power source. The powers, indeed, are not spells and they shouldn't be treated that way, unless they replicate spells, like the wu-jenArcane Dabbler feature. Why is this way? I believe to be subject to (very uncommon) effects like Antimagic Field or Counterspell.

Proposed fix: I actually like the psionics to be different effects than magic. The same way that you create an antimagic field, you can build a "Psichic resistance" field to hinder psionics if you believe that it's useful.

2. Psychic Focus: this is the most problematic issue of the Mystic. The way it functions now makes the psionic an auto-solution for many, many problems. Add to this that many powers are absolutely bonkers in their benefits (like Adaptative Body: I see no reason not to pick this power as default, and only change it when the time is needed, and then change it back; with this power you have not one organic need except for water from level 1). This is aggravated by the no-drawback and no-resource expenditure (Goodberry at least spends a lvl 1 spell slot), so this is a no choice. Granted, the food bit is a non-issue in any campaign that don't rely on survival, but then this specific part of the power is useless, so when it comes to relevance it denies its utility (no DM will allow a psionic with this discipline if it's going to make a Survival campaign, and no sane DM with a party including a psionic will ever make a Survival campaign); but I see other problems too, even in a dungeon: you aren't affected by poisonous gas, smoke, floodings, etc. You also don't need to sleep, so goodbye exhaustion. And this is only one discipline.

The other disciplines don't seem as broken (advantage in a single skill, like Animal Handling or Athletics, and such), but then limitless change of focus allows you to ever having all your psychic focus working without expending any resource.

Proposed fix: Changing the psychic focus should be limited in some way. One way to do it is limiting it to "once per short rest, as a bonus action, you can change your psychic focus". Also, some disciplines, like adaptative body, should change its psychic focus ("You can live indefinitely with half-rations, sleep half the time and hold your breath twice as much time before suffocating"), or integrate again the Minor and Major tags.

3. The relation between disciplines and archetypes. This has changed from earlier versions, and now it's weaker than ever. There is no benefit at all in choosing a discipline that belongs to your archetype, you are only forced to when you choose an archetype at first level. In V.2, you gain the HP from the Mystic Recovery feature when you expend PPs in your archetype's disciplines.

Proposed fix:
You can gain some benefit from choosing to use your archetype's powers. One way to do this is to add some benefit at further levels, like "Archetype Focus: begining at level X the PP's cost of powers related to your archetypes is reduced by 1, up to a minumum cost of 1. At level Y you reduce the PP cost by 2, to a minimum of 0".

4. Major rework of the Immortal: This is a massive change from earlier versions. In prior versions, the Immortal was basically a fighter with psionic powers. Now it has it's own flavor althogether, maybe more akin to a Jedi or an illuminate sage than a "Psychic Warrior". I'm actually quite fond of the new Immortal, barring some disciplines. A few of their features now go to the Avatar.

Proposed fix: This is a great step forward. One small change I would make is to make Immortal Durability work with Intelligence instead of Constitution/ Dexterity to make it less MAD.

5. Armor and weapon proficiencies: The Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies are gone, unless you choose an Avatar. I see this as an improvement; light armor is easier to justify than a shield and a half plate (where the Awakened learned to use those?). Another step forward.

Proposed fix: Nothing. It's great that way.

6. New Archetypes: This is perhaps the greater step forward of the file. The new archetypes are the Wu-Jen, the Avatar, the Nomad and the Soul Knife. Each one now feels a lot more streamlined and "authentic": the Nomad is a traveling, teleporting sage; the Avatar is a warrior and a leader, dabling with emotions (sort of a psionic bard); the Wu-Jen is a wuxia mad sorcerer; the Soul Knife is another psychic assassin and warrior focused on melee combat.

Proposed Fix: Most of the archetypes are balanced one way or another, but again their disciplines aren't linked in any meaningful way with their core practitioners.

7. Disciplines: There is no major and minor disciplines anymore. All disciplines are available from level 1. This is a major change from the earlier versions, and I see this as a problem. There is no balance whatsoever between them, with some of them being utterly broken, and others marginally useful (Bestial Form Gills is mostly overrided by the Adaptative Body focus, and its Psychic focus is moot). There is too many disciplines to cover here, and such a little space. Adaptative Body focus is a bigger issue than many can think, as it renders the psionic immune to many, MANY monster powers, like many dragon's breath weapons: Green Dragon's poison is the most obvious one, but also faerie dragon euphoria, silver dragon's slowing, gold dragon's weakening, gas spore's death burst, golem's poison and slow and so on and so on.

Proposed Fix:
Revisit the Major and Minor And even Sciences) disciplines concept, or tweak a lot the balance of the disciplines and their focuses. See the Psychic Focus bit.

8. Past level 10: It seems ok, but the extra PP's are a bit redundant. Also, there is the issue of concentration. This is a delicate concept, so I don't immediately discard it, but the playtesting will say it.

Overall...
Overall, the class has advanced a lot from the earlier stages. The new archetypes and the reworking of the Immortal and Awakened seem ok. Nevertheless, it doesn't resolve any of the issues from prior versions, and it has many of the same problems of before: the extreme versatility of Psychic Focus, some utterly powerful disciplines, the clunky advancement of the PPs, the nule significance of the Archetype Disciplines.

Higher levels are a little lackluster and derivative, except for the capstone power (powerful but meh, you are 20th level). Although in many ways it is what was expected, it still don't resolve. In this current state, I don't think that I will use it on any campaign soon as it dwarfs anything else. I see the class to need a massive rework of some problematic features (Psychic Focus and disciplines above anything else).
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

The trouble with making magic and psychics "different" is that there are a bunch of monsters with magic resistance, but none with psychic resistance. In most editions, that would be resolved with errata (change text on magic resistance to "spells, magical effects, and psychic abilities", but they are trying not to use errata for things like that.

Of course, there will be those who think there is no need to adjust anything on this (if they had made them "different"), but, while I would never accuse gamers of anything like a naked power grab, I would certainly think as loudly as I could.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I want to discuss the new Mystic, but starting with "it's broken because they made improvements over the last one" seems to be a bit backwards. For instance, why do you assume that Major and Minor Disciplines, which they intentionally took out after feedback and another design pass, is something they need back in?
 

Erechel

Explorer
I want to discuss the new Mystic, but starting with "it's broken because they made improvements over the last one" seems to be a bit backwards. For instance, why do you assume that Major and Minor Disciplines, which they intentionally took out after feedback and another design pass, is something they need back in?

I don't believe you want to discuss it. First of all, you are constructing a straw man. For starters, I didn't "start" with "it's broken because they made improvements", you did. I started very differently, saying that they don't differentiate anymore between magics and psionics, and I pointed my surprise. Furthermore, I didn't say that it implies that was broken, on the contrary: I believe that stating that psionics and magic are different don't really break anything, and it's thematically sound.

Moreso, I don't believe any change is automatically an improvement. Some are, some don't. I believe that Psychic Focus is broken, but it was broken before any changes were made. It's a game breaker, as the bonus per se aren't all that powerful (although some are much more powerful than others) but they pile up, as there is no limit to how many focuses can a psionic change. So, if you know a discipline, you always have it functioning whenever you need it, unless the DM decisively want to screw you.

Disciplines also vary wildly in power and utility, not only in pps spended. RAW, as I've said, Adaptative body is strictly better than Bestial Form (you need to spend 2 pps to breath underwater with the latest, no point wasted with the former, and the difference between the two focuses is also abysmal).
 

1. Magic and Psionics:[/I][/B] Jeremy Crawford tweeted that in this version, psionics are a form of magic. I see this as a massive step backwards from earlier versions, and I was actually fond of psionics being a different kind of power source. The powers, indeed, are not spells and they shouldn't be treated that way, unless they replicate spells, like the wu-jenArcane Dabbler feature. Why is this way? I believe to be subject to (very uncommon) effects like Antimagic Field or Counterspell.

Proposed fix: I actually like the psionics to be different effects than magic. The same way that you create an antimagic field, you can build a "Psichic resistance" field to hinder psionics if you believe that it's useful.

I really don't agree that it should be the default rules. Having a whole class of abilities that abjuration magics don't work against and magic resistant creatures are vulnerable to is one of the primary reasons that 1e psionics were so powerful. Making psionics different means the DM needs to consider rebalancing every monster in the book, as once-universal abilities suddenly aren't. Every monster is built expecting to face magic. Hardly any are ever built expecting to face psionics. I understand that the flavor makes a lot more sense, but from a game design perspective making expansion material inherently immune to the core mechanics is very risky game design.

I favor having the default being that magic and psionics are the same, with whatever book they're published in containing a sidebar calling out "psionics are different" as a variant along with suggested rules for making that happen and the consequences of doing so.
 


I can handle psi as magic in D&D without a problem. Psi is just another way of manipulating the Weave - wizards learn spells, sorcerers just know spells and mystics bypass the spell mechanic all together to directly manipulate magic with their minds. Keeps things clear of unnecessary complication. In a supers game I would have a different opinion, but for D&D, no problem.
 

Waterbizkit

Explorer
How much psionics should differ from magic has always seemed to be one of the biggest sticking points for people when it comes to how they feel it ought to be implemented in the game. While I've always been fairly indifferent about the subject myself, it seems quite plain to me that treating psionics the same as magic, but with a different flavors so to speak, is the easiest way forward. It allows a relatively seamless integration of new psionics material with already existing monsters and magic-wielding classes so we don't get bogged down by what interacts with what, when and how.

Now some might argue that without treating psionics as a completely different system... "well what's the point?" This isn't an outlook I really see eye to eye with because how psionics "feels" from a narrative perspective in my games has less to do with how it mechanically interacts with magic and more to do with how it gets described and treated during gameplay. So this current incarnation that essentially seems to operate as a mixture of spell points and quasi-Warlock style casting while interacting with existing magic just as if it were magic... well I quite like it.

I also like how they've stepped back a bit from the pseudo-science naming conventions and have even gone with calling the base class a Mystic this time instead of a psion. While I personally never had an issue with the sort of sci-fi naming used in previous incarnations of psionics, I don't feel anything special is really lost without it.

As far as the bulk of the new material goes? I like it, mostly. It's a lot to get through because it's one of the bigger UAs I can recall. I feel like this is giving some the impression that they're just dumping a bunch of mishmash nonsense under the umbrella of the Mystic, I think it's more of a material overload than anything that would be better elsewhere. I actually like that they're trying to keep everything under the umbrella of the Mystic because let's face it, psionics isn't to everyone's liking...it's got a feel that many seem to dislike in their standard fantasy settings. Being able to say to your table "Just ignore the Mystic and everything that goes with it" seems easier than having to point to several different archetypes that might be spread over a handful of other classes.

Anyway, that's all just my opinion and all I can say for now. I'm phone posting, so excuse any weird formatting or oddities that a missed auto-correct may have caused.
 

Erechel

Explorer
Although I see the point of balancing monsters and psionics with magic, this could be rounded. The most problematic issues would be legendary monsters such as dragons, but they have more often than not Legendary Resistance, which allows them to auto-succeed many saving throws, or they have resistance or immunity to certain conditions or damage types (golems, EG, are immune to psychic damage and the charmed condition, so if you are an Awakened you are mostly screwed), which the psionics favor a lot. If you are still very worried about it you could also add a paragraph in the psionics that say "monsters with magic resistance also have psionic resistance". As I've said, it's not really game breaking issue. I worry a lot more about the Psychic Focus.
 

hastur_nz

First Post
Magic and Psionics need to be "pretty much the same", or way too much stuff gets broken / abused. WotC figured this out around 3.5, and it needs to be the same in 5e. Simple example: wizard should be able to Dispel Magic / Counterspell vs Psionics, and visa versa.

You totally missed the huge elephant in the room - multi-classing... Not only are some of the options broken if you are a single-class Mystic, but if you allow multi-classing, I'm sure some incredibly OP dips can easily be made, especially the martial classes. Also, it's totally unclear how you should rule a multi-classed spell caster and mystic - the rules work well for multi-classed casters, but because mystics use psi points not spell slots, it seems unfair that they cannot access some kind of 'shared pool' of resource, like say a cleric/wizard can. The Wu-Jen hints at a solution, but botches the implementation IMO...

I haven't read it all with a fine toothed comb, but I myself am playing a multi-class Fighter (Eldritch Knight) 6 / Mystic (Awakened) 2, and will convert it to v3 soon (Mystic 3). I've purposely avoided "cherry picking" from some of the crazy options, but still feel like my PC has become slightly too powerful in melee, and definitely too over-powering in terms of utility outside combat; personally I'll definitely restrict myself to only changing psionic focus with a short rest, otherwise I'm leaving very little room for other PC's to be better at mine on anything much.

My DM and I initially agreed, under v2 rules, to allow a single "shared pool" of "spell / psi" points, with spell costs as per DMG spell point rules. But the Wu-Jen in v3 has me thinking this gives me too much flexibility; I like the idea of allowing me the total psi points of my total effective levels (e.g. 3 from mystic + 2 from 6 levels of Eldritch Knight = effective level 5 for psi points per long rest), so I'm the same kind of "power level" as if I'd taken wizard instead of mystic. But I also like the idea of having to allocate some of those psi points for spells, e.g. 6 psi for the 3x1st level spells I get as Eldritch Knight. It's not easy to explain, but I think it's worth consideration, once the other "OP" problems are ironed out in the Mystic.

Lastly, from just looking at it on paper, I think levels 11-20 are still too "flat". Granted, the initial levels are open to abuse and OP builds, but as written, the only real thing you get from level 11+ is breadth i.e. more versatility from adding new disciplines. Few powers have good uses for 6 and 7 psi points, which is really just the equivalent of 5th and 6th level spells. There's nothing that comes close to 7th, 8th and 9th level spells. For me, the fix is not allowing so many disciplines; they should cap out at say 5 total (so you still have to have some amount of focus, rather than "know everything"); then the Psi Limit needs to keep increasing, and there need to be "uber powers" to use them, right up to 10 psi. Otherwise, I see even more problems with people only using the Mystic as a dip-class, rather than a genuinely good option for full-class, even if you only plan running them up to say level 12-16 max.
 

Remove ads

Top