Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Ah, so he's back to where he started, then?
List of monsters confirmed in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes
Ah, so he's back to where he started, then?
Demetrios1453
Hero
Hmm, after checking out 3.x yugoloth CRs, it does seem that the piscoloths and yagnoloths are indeed more mid-tier. When I had made my previous post, I was thinking they were much lower in power level...
MonsterEnvy
Legend
No he is still more powerful then he used to be. As he is a god still.
It's mainly seems to be a side effect of how 5e wants to present the stages of Godhood.
Lesser God. Dwells in the Planes and can meet and be affected by mortals.
Greater god. Is out of Mortal Reach and can't directly effect or be affected by mortals except in the cases of manifested avatars around the power of lesser gods. (But whose destruction has no effect on the god itself.)
They wanted to keep Asmodeus a lesser god so that people could interact with him.
Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Back in 1e AD&D, the Deities & Demigods tome considered Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus, Lolth, Yeenoghu, Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater, Geryon, Bahamut, Tiamat, the various Elemental Princes of Evil, Ssendam, & Ygorl to be lesser gods. (This was prior to the release of the Monster Manual II, so I'd assume the same would extend to the equivalent beings therein.)
Sword of Spirit
Legend
5e divine rankings are an inconsistent mess.
The DMG is vague about the nature of greater deities (or apparently it's just beyond my comprehension!) So vague that I wondered which deities were even going to qualify.
When it comes to lesser deities, they give examples of two deities that were previously lesser deities, and one that was a demigod.
They also don't address the "divine" demigods of previous editions, instead using "demigod" to refer to the literally correct half-gods, but saying they can't hear prayers and such. So maybe they are just consolidating previous edition demigods into lesser deities for simplicity?
The MM gives us more information by calling out the rank of a few deities. Magubliyet is a Greater Deity--so they are (or at least include) previous edition greater deities. Kurtulmak is in as a lesser deity.
Okay, so it sounds like if something was a greater deity in the past, it is a greater deity in 5e, and everything else is a lesser deity, right?
Except - not.
Many of the arch-fiends were also considered deities, but they seem to have backed off of that, only attributing that to Asmodeus. Same thing with arch-fey. (Oh wait, forget about the fey. The MM unicorn entry speaks of fey deities. Titania, Oberon, the Queen of Air and Darkness, deities or not deities? Nobody knows.)
I can't remember where, but I know there is mention made of other previous demigods being downgraded to something completely non-divine.
Okay, I can live with that. Deities are one thing, but there are other powerful beings that can be super powerful without being deities, and they don't grant spells, they just make warlocks. Cool, that gives us some variety and distinction in the super beings. (Except, who are these fey gods???)
This Volo's Guide to Monsters book is cool. I can see why it's so popular. Wait a minute, Raxivort is a demigod who can hear prayers, but who is less powerful than the demon prince Grazz't. So now we have real demigods again, and yet non-divine arch-fiends that are more powerful than them.
I've got my own working model, but I really don't know what's actually going on in the heads of our D&D pantheon of Mearls, Crawford, Perkins, and the rest. It sounds like it might be something awesome, but there are clearly discrepancies and they need to explain how it's meant to be understood. It doesn't do us any good if the assumptions behind it all only exist in their greater designer minds, incomprehensible to us mortals.
The DMG is vague about the nature of greater deities (or apparently it's just beyond my comprehension!) So vague that I wondered which deities were even going to qualify.
When it comes to lesser deities, they give examples of two deities that were previously lesser deities, and one that was a demigod.
They also don't address the "divine" demigods of previous editions, instead using "demigod" to refer to the literally correct half-gods, but saying they can't hear prayers and such. So maybe they are just consolidating previous edition demigods into lesser deities for simplicity?
The MM gives us more information by calling out the rank of a few deities. Magubliyet is a Greater Deity--so they are (or at least include) previous edition greater deities. Kurtulmak is in as a lesser deity.
Okay, so it sounds like if something was a greater deity in the past, it is a greater deity in 5e, and everything else is a lesser deity, right?
Except - not.
Many of the arch-fiends were also considered deities, but they seem to have backed off of that, only attributing that to Asmodeus. Same thing with arch-fey. (Oh wait, forget about the fey. The MM unicorn entry speaks of fey deities. Titania, Oberon, the Queen of Air and Darkness, deities or not deities? Nobody knows.)
I can't remember where, but I know there is mention made of other previous demigods being downgraded to something completely non-divine.
Okay, I can live with that. Deities are one thing, but there are other powerful beings that can be super powerful without being deities, and they don't grant spells, they just make warlocks. Cool, that gives us some variety and distinction in the super beings. (Except, who are these fey gods???)
This Volo's Guide to Monsters book is cool. I can see why it's so popular. Wait a minute, Raxivort is a demigod who can hear prayers, but who is less powerful than the demon prince Grazz't. So now we have real demigods again, and yet non-divine arch-fiends that are more powerful than them.
I've got my own working model, but I really don't know what's actually going on in the heads of our D&D pantheon of Mearls, Crawford, Perkins, and the rest. It sounds like it might be something awesome, but there are clearly discrepancies and they need to explain how it's meant to be understood. It doesn't do us any good if the assumptions behind it all only exist in their greater designer minds, incomprehensible to us mortals.
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Elderbrain
Guest
Sadly, in the D&D Beyond article/video "Infernal options in MTOF" it states that SOME of the Archdevils get stats, not ALL...
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Elderbrain
Guest
My understanding from reading the DMG text was this: Quasi-deities are semi-divine but not actual gods, like Hercules during his mortal life or like a Empyrean. These beings don't hear or answer prayers, grant Cleric spells, and are un-divine enough to be allowed to enter Sigil. Lesser deities are fully divine, grant Cleric spells and have realms, but have material bodies that can be "killed" anywhere, and if the death happens on the beings' home plane it's real. Tiamat is an example - she gets "killed" at the end of Rise of Tiamat, but since her death happens in Faerun, not the Nine Hells, she's effectively just banished. Greater gods don't have vunerable material bodies - they can form bodies equivalent to those of a Lesser god, but killing the body doesn't harm the deity, even on its home plane. Only another Greater god or perhaps a mortal armed with an Artifact could cause its death - or special circumstances, in the case of certain Greater gods like Odin. Example: Zeus, Odin, Re, and other pantheon leaders.
I will have to re-read the VGTM text about Raxivort - his ability to hear prayers may be an exception to the rule. Some beings who are not gods can hear mortal entreaties, too, such as the Demon lord Pazzuzu (known as Pazrael in Planescape), who to my knowledge has never been defined as a god.
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Elderbrain
Guest
Which Archdevils are you hoping for? I hope we get Mephistopeles, Dispater, Glasya, Zariel, and Asmodeus (yes, he's a god, but they stated up Tiamat, and he's in the same tier, Lesser god.) If we don't get Asmodeus I want Belial and his daughter Fierna, who are co-rulers of a layer.
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Elderbrain
Guest
Have Nagpa been mentioned yet? They're in but I forgot about them.
MonsterEnvy
Legend
Yeah we even got a preview of their art.
Sadly, in the D&D Beyond article/video "Infernal options in MTOF" it states that SOME of the Archdevils get stats, not ALL...
Archdevils also include guys like Titivulus, Hutijin, Amon and Bael.
If I were to lose any I think Levistus could be dropped with little problem. Guy is trapped in a glacier anyway
