Longest Encounter Yet!

[Caragaran]

We play once every 6 weeks for most of a day (8 hour session) our DM is a great believer in intelligent foes acting .. well intelligently. We are doingH2 first time in for all of us and we went to go and kill some slavers in the labrinth (I am at work and dont have my notes on the clan name of the hobgoblins).

The fight went well at first we snuck in got a suprise round on the guards at the main door got good initive and waded in killing one guard and locking the other down the first encounter was going well until the evil imp following me (story stuff for me as I am changing class) opened the door to the next encounter we were suddenly in a 2 encounter chain, so first encounter (bug bear + 4 goblins) plus second encounter (dire wolf plus 3 Hobgoblin archer) one archer escaped wounded to call his boss while we finished of his pal, then the boss encounter joined in and sent one other mob to go and rouse the rest of the dungeon against us in total (1 bugbear, 2 dark dwarves, 1 dire wolf, 4 goblin melee, 2 goblin achers, 2 rogue types, 3 hobgoblin soldiers, 3 hobgoblin archer 1 hobgoblin warcaster and the BBEG). the whole encounter took 6 hours easily over 25 rounds probably over 30 as the last few rounds went quickly as we tried to finish things off.

We were 5th level so slightly over for those encounters i believe. luckily our party is Cleric, warlord, Rogue, barbarian and Ranger so we were focusing down the enemy fast even with the constant stream of monsters.

The barbarian rage lasted from round 1 which was a help (I burnt all my encounter powers in the first round) the only things that kept us alive at the end were the warlord's stand the fallen and the cleric lvl 5 daily zone that heals and damages.

Has anyone else had anything longer and does anyone have any suggestions I can pass to my GM on how to make it less grindy as it is likely other dungeons can end up like this if we lose control of the enemy.

 

[Mesh Hong]

The barbarian rage lasted from round 1 which was a help (I burnt all my encounter powers in the first round) the only things that kept us alive at the end were the warlord's stand the fallen and the cleric lvl 5 daily zone that heals and damages.

Has anyone else had anything longer and does anyone have any suggestions I can pass to my GM on how to make it less grindy as it is likely other dungeons can end up like this if we lose control of the enemy.

Are you saying that you effectively did the whole dungeon as one encounter, so your encounter powers didn't refresh at any thime?

If you are then I am not surprised it was a bit "Grindy", the counter measure for this is to ask your DM to declare a new encounter at dramatically appropriate moments. This ends all PC power effects in the current encounter and refreshes all PC encounter based powers, actions points etc.

As for long combats, I modified the system to build a mass combat system to play out an epic battle near the end of my campaign. That lasted about 8 hours, but we have always been quite relaxed about long combats so we wern't exactly rushing.

 

[Caragaran]

Yes the whole dungeon was one long encounter it seemed to be 4-5 encounter all run into one, as our GM will use intelligent monster that way they will run for help and raise the alarm. We use map tools so we actually saw the monster run past the room we were in to go and rouse another group of monsters, it cascaded until we were in the middle of one room on the clerics holy ground beating the enemy down.

I suggested to him(by email later on) that maybe in situations like this after a significant victory we could refresh an encounter power and gain another action point to use. When we actually took down the BBEG in the middle of the fight we were all quite exicited and it would have made a natural point for our charecters to be refreshed. The fight was actually ok it was only the final few monsters that got grindy as before that we were all on edge wondering if we were gonna die (the GM spending 5 mins moving monster or as we said the pounding of running feet coming closer will do that).

 

[Plane Sailing]

Are you saying that you effectively did the whole dungeon as one encounter, so your encounter powers didn't refresh at any thime?

If you are then I am not surprised it was a bit "Grindy", the counter measure for this is to ask your DM to declare a new encounter at dramatically appropriate moments.

I've not heard of this idea before, but it is a neat suggestion to allow, say, whenever a second 'encounter' joins in with a first one all encounter powers are refreshed, Wouldn't suit everyone or every situation, but could certainly reduce grindiness and gives the PCs a 'second wind for powers' when dramatically appropriate.

Interesting.

 

[Mesh Hong]

I wouldn't necessarily do this whenever a second encounter joined the first, but I would definately consider it when the third joined. It all depends on the dynamic and a DMs assessment of the situation.

In general it is a design expectation that all PCs will have access to their usual encounter powers for each encounter. So if you are lumping several encounters together it is something you should consider.

From personal experience there are also times when you want to maintain the pressure and rebalance an encounter in favour of the monsters a little. In my game PC zones were usually very effective, so declaring a new encounter allowed me to end a troublesome zone. I didn't always enforce this but it was a handy DM tool to keep an encounter exciting.

Of course the beauty in having a second encounter join the first and not refreshing encounter powers is that the PCs are much more likely to use daily powers, which is something that many groups are loathed to do.

 

[Goonalan]

Yes the whole dungeon was one long encounter it seemed to be 4-5 encounter all run into one, as our GM will use intelligent monster that way they will run for help and raise the alarm. We use map tools so we actually saw the monster run past the room we were in to go and rouse another group of monsters, it cascaded until we were in the middle of one room on the clerics holy ground beating the enemy down.

I suggested to him(by email later on) that maybe in situations like this after a significant victory we could refresh an encounter power and gain another action point to use. When we actually took down the BBEG in the middle of the fight we were all quite exicited and it would have made a natural point for our charecters to be refreshed. The fight was actually ok it was only the final few monsters that got grindy as before that we were all on edge wondering if we were gonna die (the GM spending 5 mins moving monster or as we said the pounding of running feet coming closer will do that).

I've run this a few times and the chance of the bad guys going to get some friends is pretty high. I've also run encounters in which the entire dungeon (5 encounters) have blended into one, there are obvious problems with this, as the OP states.

From my perspective (DM) I sometimes think, and say to my players, if you don't lock down this fight then there's a chance, a very 'real' chance... I need them to know the consequences of their actions, that this is a dynamic environment et al. Sometimes the players have no problem with the rolling encounter and just continue with the grind, other times they decide that they need a rest and do their best to help them prevent the last guy getting away.

Often it's as simple as this, get the DM to indicate when this is going to happen, or could happen, or as players ask leading questions- or as players concentrate your efforts more on locking down fights.

You need to talk to your DM about the kind of game you want to be playing, if you all chat and the consensus is that 5 encounters into 1 is not good for all then make changes, I really don't think the answer is to give you back your encounter powers, or action points without the players resting- that seems pretty lame (remember I'm working this from a DMs perspective, not a player's). Besides there's no guarantee it will fix the grind issues you are facing...

In short- chat with everyone, get consensus, adapt and evolve.

My players know I do this kind of thing so they're on the lookout for it these days, they look for choke-points, places they can retreat too in a hurry- get a short rest before heading back out. Sometimes as a DM I rule that the time it takes for the last man to flee back to whoever, and for whoever to arm and get to the fracas... the PCs can get in a short rest.

And fix it now because if you are continuing on in the Core adventures then the DM is going to get many more opportunities to do this kind of thing, and with much greater numbers of encounters.

Cheers PDR

 

[MrMyth]

Our DM just ran something along these lines. We're in the middle of an elven city during an assembly of the ruling council, when something like three different attacks break out through the city as various demons and monstrosities are summoned. Our DM runs it as one connected encounter, as half the party splits off to fight the solo abomination, the other half goes to deal with the summoned demons, and then we reconvene afterwards at the council to save the Queen from the various traitors and rebels that decided the chaos was a good time for an assassination.

All in all, it was a 21 round encounter with no short rests. Instead, right at the start, an ally gave us several magical beads that could be consumed to replenish us in various ways - each PC had 5 red ones which could refresh an encounter power, let us spend a surge, or renew an action point. We also each had one blue one which would restore us to full if we dropped.

Basically, the DM calculated how much we would normally be getting from resting between encounters, and parcelled it out into smaller chunks we could control on our own. It worked out really well - things felt tense but the beads let us push on even when things looked really bad, and the entire event felt like it moved quickly despite the total overall length.

 

[Caragaran]

Our GM did warn us that one was running for help, my charecter heard the order (he speaks goblin) unfortunately the dire wolf was blocking the entrance and as much as i tried (burnt a daily to kill wolf ran in used an AP to attack again) I missed on my AoO as he ran off for help. I play the rogue so it wasn't a good chance anyway and i had burnt my low slash keeping the guard in the first encounter from running off to second encounter (damn that evil imp for opening the door.. well he does want to kill me). Generally it is my job to chase down runners so i normally save my AP and low slash for an 18 move + attack to do just that. So this is the first time we had more than a one - two encounter run. We effectively lost control and had to stand firm. Luckily with 2 leaders we had the healing resources to survive this.

 

[vagabundo]

Off the top of my head: one of the DMGs has some options for this scenario. It does say it may be appropriate to allow Encounter powers to recharge if you have an Encounters Merge.

It might be the DMG2.

Other suggestions:
* Encounter Design: Use more minions or use the Tougher Minion house rule (snagged from the house rule fourm): Minions get a HP threshold (use can calculate this using a variety of methods. Con Mod+1/2 level is the one I use). If the PC's damage any minion with more than the threshold it is dead. If they do any damage it is bloodied - so you don't track HP for minions. They have three states; alive, bloodied, dead. This rule has the benefit of allowing abilities activated on the bloodied condition to work.

* PC Behaviour (in-game): Don't let the dungeon be alerted. Or if it is, retreat and allow things to settle. If you know your in for a long long battle it might be best to come back again.

*Terrain features/powers: Have the DM scatter Easter Eggs through-out the dungeon. So there can be little hidden things for you to look for that will make the combat encounters easier to deal with or unlock Terrain Powers that do damage against foes. This can work well with a living dungeon and can be awesome if done right (I had a whole ceiling/ramp collapse in an old Dwarvan Mine when someone pulled a lever - unfortunately it was on the PC's, but they had the chance to drop it on the bad guys, they shudda pulled the lever).

* Tricks and Stunts (p42): allow some cool tricks and stunts to deal damage when the encounters and dailies are done.

* Recharging: Allow AP's to accumulate and allow them to be spent on recharging powers; Kill a minor boss and get an AP to spend, Kill ten minions and get an AP, etc.. Kind of like achievements in a console game you can only get them once. They will add a little bit of spice to an encounter as different PC's go after different achievements or trophies (ten hob-goblin ears).

* Surrendering/Retreating: Allow some form of morale for the monsters. You shouldn't have to wipe out every monster to win the day. Remember Intimidate vs Will against a bloodied foe will cow them into surrendering.

 

[Riastlin]

Aye chaining an entire dungeon together is a recipe for a tpk. While it didn't happen here, if it happens often enough, it almost certainly will happen eventually, especially in a group without a defender -- though the two leaders helps somewhat.

My longest encounter was about 4 hours and was simply one encounter (albeit at party level +4). The main problem in that fight was that the PCs more or less split up and never really did focus fire. To make matters worse the Psion and Artificer were left to deal with the Neldrazu on their own (not exactly a great thing either ). The party survived without a death but only because both the Artificer and the Paladin were able to offer surgeless heals to the Psion who was out of healing.

As for tips, I think the best suggestion (and one that has worked well for me) is to use Energy Nodes (they are in DMG 2). Energy Nodes allow the recovery of an encounter or recharge power and use up the Node. The cool thing about energy nodes is that you can sprinkle a few of them into the encounter area, but both PCs and monsters can use them. To me, this works better than simply saying "Okay, your encounter powers are back." It can actually be fun watching the PCs try to race the monsters to the nodes. You can also, if need be, toss a couple new nodes into the encounter in the middle of it if, like in the OPs case, you start chaining a bunch of encounters together.