Longsword Finesse bummer

[Orcus Porkus]

It seems that by RAW this feat limits the longsword to Rogue Powers and Sneak Attacks, but you can't take advantage of anything else that requires a light blade, for example Surprising Charge, Light Blade Mastery, Light Blade Precision. This makes the feat much less attractive... what do you guys think? Am I wrong here?

Longsword Finesse
Prerequisites: Eladrin, rogue
Benefit: You can wield a longsword to deal Sneak
Attack damage and to use rogue powers that require
a light blade (you still cannot throw the longsword).
You reduce Sneak Attack damage by one die when
using a longsword.

 

[Kordeth]

It's still a pretty great feat, as it gives you access to Eladrin Soldier, Heavy Blade Opportunity, and any heavy blade feats in Martial Power. Letting it count as a light blade would be way too good (as seen for example in the balance problems that crop up with the two-bladed sword.

 

[77IM]

It seem to me like a pretty lousy feat when compared to Weapon Proficiency (rapier), which allows you to keep all your Sneak Attack dice. Sure, the longsword guy can make up for the -3.5 damage by spending even more feats, but the rapier guy could have spent those feats on damage too, and probably come out ahead.

Thoughts? Setting aside role-playing reasons for preferring longsword, can anyone show me how this feat is at least equal to Weapon Proficiency (rapier)?

-- 77IM

 

[scarik]

Rapier I think would still be better.

The Rapier Rogue spends a feat for:
Rapier prof
Nimble Blade
Weapon Focus

The Eladrin with Longsword spends a feat for:
Longsword Finesse
Eladrin Soldier
Heavy Blade Opportunity

So he's down 1 to hit and 3.5 avg damage on sneak attacks at heroic, at paragon and epic the damage gap widens by +1

Also at Epic you also have a harder time getting Heavy Blade Mastery than Light Blade Mastery.

All is all unless there's a weapon property that breaks this that I can't think of or you're doing a crazy Rogue/wizard of the spiral tower I can't tell you.

 

[Ximenes088]

Sure, the longsword guy can make up for the -3.5 damage by spending even more feats, but the rapier guy could have spent those feats on damage too, and probably come out ahead.

Not necessarily. In 4e, you really can't just spend all your feats on damage. There are a limited number of ways to boost damage with feats, and once you have them, that's it. HBO and the heavy blade feats are impressive by themselves, but this also enables some exotic builds:

Eladrin infernal warlock/paragon multiclass rogue. Take Twofold Pact for a bonus at-will and trade it for Piercing Strike. Congrats- you're a warlock who can dish out rogue-level damage in melee, with high Dex-based AC and the ability to use a Pact Sword for your warlock powers. And Pact Swords don't lower Curse dice. Or flip it rogue/regular warlock multiclass and use a Pact Sword with impunity.

Eladrin wand wizard/rogue/Wizard of the Spiral Tower. Use your longsword for every power you have.

I'm sure other combos will emerge in time, but that's what the feat is for- combo builds. If you never want to leave the rogue pool, rapier is fine.

 

[Benly]

To me it seems like the real problem isn't how this feat compares to the rapier (each has advantages and disadvantages) but that this feat is flat-out inferior to Weapon Proficiency: Double Sword in nearly every regard - you get the same accuracy and damage die, you get the heavy blade feats without having to give up light blade feats or a die of sneak attack damage. You lose 1 damage in heroic from Weapon Focus vs. Eladrin Soldier, but WF catches up and outstrips it anyway.

Nice idea, but it was already out-power-creeped.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Eladrin wand wizard/rogue/Wizard of the Spiral Tower. Use your longsword for every power you have.

I was waiting for this feat specifically just for this reason. This combination creates the 1e Elf Fighter/MagicUser/Thief vibe.

 

[Ximenes088]

To me it seems like the real problem isn't how this feat compares to the rapier (each has advantages and disadvantages) but that this feat is flat-out inferior to Weapon Proficiency: Double Sword in nearly every regard.

I'm expecting to see double sword get nerfed down a measure. It's awfully good for just about every non-ranger TWFer.

 

[aurance]

Not necessarily. In 4e, you really can't just spend all your feats on damage. There are a limited number of ways to boost damage with feats, and once you have them, that's it. HBO and the heavy blade feats are impressive by themselves, but this also enables some exotic builds:

This is what 77IM is saying. The rapier user is ahead on damage without spending any feats. The longsword user has to spend feats to catch up.

Eladrin infernal warlock/paragon multiclass rogue. Take Twofold Pact for a bonus at-will and trade it for Piercing Strike. Congrats- you're a warlock who can dish out rogue-level damage in melee, with high Dex-based AC and the ability to use a Pact Sword for your warlock powers. And Pact Swords don't lower Curse dice. Or flip it rogue/regular warlock multiclass and use a Pact Sword with impunity.

You can do the same with rapier, only with more sneak attack damage than a longsword at the same feat cost. No reason to use a longsword.

Eladrin wand wizard/rogue/Wizard of the Spiral Tower. Use your longsword for every power you have.

This is probably the only use for this feat at the moment.

 

[Ximenes088]

You can do the same with rapier, only with more sneak attack damage than a longsword at the same feat cost.

No, you can't- warlocks can't use rapiers as implements, but they can use Pact Swords if they're Eladrin.