Looking for a simpler PC Gen...

Taurendil

First Post
Devon,

thanks for all the info. I see where you're going and I thank you for the effort. From looking at the code I know it can't be easy but with enough refactoring you'll get there.

Is there someplace I can read some more about PCGen's achitecture and where it's going? I'm currently learning Java and I'm always interested in seeing ways of designing and implementing such a large and complex thing as the D20 engine.
 

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kingpaul

First Post
Taurendil said:
Is there someplace I can read some more about PCGen's achitecture and where it's going? I'm currently learning Java and I'm always interested in seeing ways of designing and implementing such a large and complex thing as the D20 engine.
Do I hear a new volunteer? :D
 

Taurendil

First Post
kingpaul said:
Do I hear a new volunteer? :D

Maybe... :)

As I said, I'm still learning Java. I'd rather know the language before jumping into a codebase as big as PCGen.

I do have experience with OOP in php 5 which looks quite a bit like Java, so it shouldn't be too hard.

Other than that it all depends on my free time. Of course, you never have enough of that...
 

soulcatcher

First Post
Taurendil said:
Devon,

thanks for all the info. I see where you're going and I thank you for the effort. From looking at the code I know it can't be easy but with enough refactoring you'll get there.

Is there someplace I can read some more about PCGen's achitecture and where it's going? I'm currently learning Java and I'm always interested in seeing ways of designing and implementing such a large and complex thing as the D20 engine.

So the architecture document is still in process: http://www.geocities.com/thpr/CDOM_Arch_0.1.pdf

Let us know what you think, we are still very much in the request for commentary phase on this.

Devon
 

Intro:
Many moons ago PCgen was used by everyone in the campaign I ran to create and track their D&D characters. When I started the next campaign PCgen had left such a bad taste in MY mouth for various reasons that I decided not to use it for myself. Apparantly nobody else did either for without ME to have a copy of it on my computer all my players felt it wasn't worth the bother to do so for themselves at home. It's probably just as well since I then discovered that with software to assist them they had completely forgotten how to level-up characters on their own. They couldn't even make level-based changes to BAB and saves without software to do it for them. Talk about a crutch!

Anyway, that was YEARS ago. Not until I recently started looking at HeroLab have I even thought about using software for this again. PCgen was THAT negative of an experience! Comments here got me thinking about it yet again and PCgen in particular. I went to the website and my knee-jerk responses follow:

As I personally see it, a character generator for D&D, regardless of what its intended or hoped-for capabilities are for "power users", should require no more knowledge or intuition than the rules present in the PH itself and a blank paper character sheetfor any given user to start it up and begin making a character. After the program is started a user should be able to start creating an SRD character with the very next mouse click or key press. I should should be able to proceed to build this character RIGHT NOW, not after reading software documentation of any kind. If it's ABSOLUTELY necessary that I learn how & why the software does something arcane & computer-ey before I can proceed then the first thing I see should be a simple, clear, written tutorial, walkthrough, or wizard button that can take me through the initial steps in a simple fashion - with another option to skip it and proceed right to the intricacies of customizing the software to my personal ends.

Maybe this is just my own personal POV, but my understanding is that you are first and foremost attempting to sell ANY user on the convenience of your product - the ability to use your software INSTEAD of rulebooks and paper to build a character. The moment that you require users - ANY users - to have to "learn" your software before they can procede, to hunt for anything that a core rules character needs as part of the character creation process then you're already failing. For example the need to load "datasets" should be left for those who need something beyond the SRD. The need to even understand the concept of datasets should be left for when the user says, "Okay, now I need something BEYOND the core rules."

When I first think about possibly using PCgen the website that comes up should be GEARED to showing me AS A USER what it can do for me and convincing me to use it. The FIRST thing I see should be a nice, friendly button or link to download the most recent general release version with the very next click. I should NOT HAVE TO GO LOOKING FOR IT - not even if it requires clicking a tab marked "downloads". If you insist that I DO go to "Downloads first then it should be the FIRST thing I see there. It should be obvious RIGHT THERE what the link is to start that download. Put the reference information about the download BELOW the link.

The second thing I see on the home page should be a nice, freindly link or button that will SHOW me basics of what PCgen looks like and how it's used. It should convince me with text AND some basic screenshots that it is more comprehensive but also EASY TO USE - or at least easier than your next closest competitor. SELL your software to me even if it IS free. PCgen's website looks and feels like reading stereo instructions. It's dry and lifeless and as a potential new USER I do not need or even want to see information about the ongoing PROJECT when looking for information about the PRODUCT. Information for project participants and potential users should be quite seperate and/or the assumption should always be that I am a user, not a participant. Now maybe that doesn't work for your project webpage but as a potential new user I can DEFINITELY tell you that your project webpage doesn't work for ME.

One of the things I remember from several years ago when I last looked at/used PCgen is that I needed to go get java-related software in addition to PCgen. That meant that I had to go digging around, bringing myself up to date on just what the hell a JRE (?), etc. was and where I was supposed to get it in order to make PCgen run. Near as I can tell that has not changed. So, right up there next to the PCgen version of the "Easy Button" should be DIRECT links (or as direct as is allowable) to whatever Java software I need to install - and then instructions on how to intall it all since clearly there is no PCgen installer that will actually do these things FOR me. All in all, though this may be unavoidable for YOU it is yet another stumbling block for ME, your potential new user. You should be moving heaven and earth to eliminate these barricades for me or at least making them moronically easy to get over.

And then there's bug reporting. While it's useful to have users reporting bugs so that you can provide ever-better software for them IT IS NOT THE USERS JOB. When a user has to report a bug it's a FAILURE of your project. Now one bug is seldom going to stop anybody, but if you feel compelled to make bug reporting a feature of your software what kind of message are you sending to me? It's not a message that I have nothing to worry about in choosing PCgen over something else (including books and paper). How many bugs am I potentially looking at here? I'm NOT a beta-tester or a programmer - I'm the potential USER. Bugs should be the last thing I EVER have to deal with.

Now just one of the above elements won't likely stop anyone from trying PCgen - but what about two of them? More? These are the sorts of things that CUMULATE when you start dealing with PCgen and it is this kind of cumulative list that makes PCgen seem more like a PAIN IN THE ASS to use than the ANSWER to my character generation and tracking issues.

I'm pretty sure that I, personally, am never going to turn to PCgen again until a LOT of those cumulative issues are resolved and I just don't see that happening in the reasonable future. PCgen is by no means a bad product! But I find it just as easy to use books and paper as even think about the bother of dealing with PCgen again.
 


soulcatcher

First Post
Man in the Funny Hat said:
And then there's bug reporting. While it's useful to have users reporting bugs so that you can provide ever-better software for them IT IS NOT THE USERS JOB. When a user has to report a bug it's a FAILURE of your project. Now one bug is seldom going to stop anybody, but if you feel compelled to make bug reporting a feature of your software what kind of message are you sending to me? It's not a message that I have nothing to worry about in choosing PCgen over something else (including books and paper). How many bugs am I potentially looking at here? I'm NOT a beta-tester or a programmer - I'm the potential USER. Bugs should be the last thing I EVER have to deal with.

Just so it's clear, what you are asking for is software that doesn't ask for anything from you, and a company that sits behind it who will solve your problems for you. We don't make money from you. We work on this program for our enjoyment, and as a gift to the community. If the value of our gift to you is so low in your eyes that you are unwilling to help a little here and there to make the software fit your needs better, then the people who *are* willing to do so are likely going to get their needs met first.

PCGen is at least competitive with most of the other software out there. Yes, we have our failings, and we are trying to fix those. No one is being hoodwinked by us. No one is spending hard earned money on PCGen itself, and getting something that wasn't advertised. We are what we are, and yes, we have flaws, and we want to fix them. But we first and foremost are a community that is made up of hundreds of people donating their time.

What you mention about the website is reasonable, and repairable in fairly short order, and I appreciate your analysis of it, even if you specifically have told us in your missive that you have no intention of trying to help out our community project. So no offense, but I have a hard time wanting to go out of my way for someone who explicitly has told me that the time I donate isn't good enough for them, and that they want more, but are unwilling to lift a finger to help at all. If you want this level of support, consider paying money for it - demanding people donate more for your personal benefit, and being unwilling to reciprocate strikes me as somewhat hypocritical.

Devon
Note: This specific comment is my own, and I don't intend this to be read as the opinion of the rest of the board of directors.
 

soulcatcher said:
Just so it's clear, what you are asking for is software that doesn't ask for anything from you, and a company that sits behind it who will solve your problems for you. We don't make money from you. We work on this program for our enjoyment, and as a gift to the community. If the value of our gift to you is so low in your eyes that you are unwilling to help a little here and there to make the software fit your needs better, then the people who *are* willing to do so are likely going to get their needs met first.
Q.E.D. I tried to make it clear that I'm not a user of PCgen and haven't been for a long time and don't intend to be for any and all of the reasons I mentioned and more. Take it for what it IS. There's no personal insult to ME there from the PCgen community and no intent to insult THEM. I just thought you might find it USEFUL to know some reasons WHY I don't use it and won't - reasons that I did not see being mentioned elsewhere in the thread but which I consider prohibitive to other potential users.
PCGen is at least competitive with most of the other software out there. Yes, we have our failings, and we are trying to fix those. No one is being hoodwinked by us. No one is spending hard earned money on PCGen itself, and getting something that wasn't advertised. We are what we are, and yes, we have flaws, and we want to fix them. But we first and foremost are a community that is made up of hundreds of people donating their time.
So be it. I don't use it and so, don't much care. PCgen is not MY hobby - D&D is. PCgen is only of any value to me if I could find it beneficial as what it purports to be - a solution for gamers to deal with character creation and tracking issues. That means that you have more than math errors and missing prestige class bonuses to deal with. If you REALLY want your project to be more than programming challenges to occupy your time then you need more than just bug reports. Whether you're getting paid for it or not, if you want PCgen to be the premier software and not just a hobby in and of itself then this too needs to be part of your project - not just coding, but SELLING potential new users on the benefits of your software. As one of those potential new users (though because of past experiences a MUCH harder sell) I'm telling you what I want. You don't have to give it to me if you don't want to. Do you want to? That's what I'm asking.

What you mention about the website is reasonable, and repairable in fairly short order, and I appreciate your analysis of it, even if you specifically have told us in your missive that you have no intention of trying to help out our community project.
You know, it seems to me I made similar comments about the website in the past. Heck, if that's the only thing that you take from my comments have they not done your project some good?

So no offense, but I have a hard time wanting to go out of my way for someone who explicitly has told me that the time I donate isn't good enough for them, and that they want more, but are unwilling to lift a finger to help at all. If you want this level of support, consider paying money for it - demanding people donate more for your personal benefit, and being unwilling to reciprocate strikes me as somewhat hypocritical.
So who's ASKING you to? You'll do what you want to in your own good time as a community and it won't really make a difference to me. I'm just telling you what you're up against if you want more than just more coders but more USERS of your software. Ostensibly that's what all the coding is intended to accomplish, yes? Or IS it just a hobby for you? I WOULD pay for it if I DIDN'T have to make swift, simple character creation software itself a second hobby in order to get it. Once again - I'm not a potential project participant, I'm a potential USER of the successful RESULT of that project. You don't have to give me the moon if I ask for it unless that's what you're TRYING to do.

All the comments in this thread about object models, .lst files, and whatall means nothing to someone like me who just wants to get his hands on software able to create characters for a campaign WITHOUT having to wade through all kinds of crap just like that. In fact it DRIVES THEM AWAY to find their solution elsewhere - or just stick to books and paper, just as it did me and the players in my group.
 

Taurendil

First Post
soulcatcher said:
So the architecture document is still in process: http://www.geocities.com/thpr/CDOM_Arch_0.1.pdf

Let us know what you think, we are still very much in the request for commentary phase on this.

Devon

I had a quick read, seems like you've put a lot of thought into this. Can't say I understand everything right now. I need to read some of the links (not that familiar with graph theory) and propably have a better understanding of the rest of the codebase. Not being a native english speaker doesn't help either. Are there other documents about the current architecture and such? e.g. What are Tokens? Are they the code representation of the LST tags?

Most of the general assumptions are inline with what I try to use myself on projects.

I'm looking for an easy intro to the project. Do you have a team that does Unit Tests (or other tests)? Seems like a good way to get started without getting in over my head. I'm familiar with unit testing under php using simpletest, should be similar to JUnit.

But maybe this conversation shouldn't be held in this thread. So show me the way...
 

schporto

First Post
Man in the Funny Hat said:
I WOULD pay for it if I DIDN'T have to make swift, simple character creation software itself a second hobby in order to get it.

I'm just curious - how much would you pay?
-cpd
 

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