Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Dragons also have to sleep from time to time and then an alarm spell is quite handy.

Fighters need to sleep, too. Commoners need to sleep. Bears need to sleep. None of the casts the Alarm spell.

Fighters and Commoners help themselves with watch dogs or having people stand guard. Bears don't even have that, but they probably just sleep lightly and have little enemies to fear.

In all cases, someone dedicated still can kill you in your sleep. Why does it need to be different for the Dragon? Why does he need to rely on magical protection, if not some "socializing" with trapmakers and cultists can do the trick.

4E even presents a good reason why Dragons don't need spells. The gods/primordal created the Dragonborn for them, humanoid/reptiloids servants.

 

[Derren]

Fighters and commoners are normally not on the hit list of many of assassins (aka. adventurers). And when they are you can bet that they either invest heavily in traps and alarm spells or die quickly. A pity that dragons are no social creatures and don't have the ability to simply ask the local guards and trapmakers to get some traps. They have to rely on their own power.
Or on Minions. But when they need minions for everything then the minions are the real encounter.

And killing a bear in its sleep is easy for every experienced rogue, especially when he uses magic. But which rogue would kill a bear in its sleep? A dragon on the other hand is a quite worthwhile target.

 

[Aeric]

Removing spellcasting/powers from dragons is the best thing ever. Finally! Dragons are cunning and canny brutes, not freaking scholars who pore over ancient tomes. they get unique powers for them only (hopefully different for ewach color) and their dragon breath. Oha nd hteir massive size, teeth and claws, wings, etc.

Thats all they need.

As for lairs, maybe they have a good sense of smell (high perception). They doin't need an alarm spell.

QFT.

This is the best news about 4E I've heard since the gnome thing.

 

[Steely Dan]

I always thought that dragons made their abode in naturally occurring spaces, and maybe punched a few holes (big) in a wall or ceiling (escape route) here or there.

 

[vagabundo]

I'm glad dragons will lose the spellcasting out of the box and that they should be playable from the MM. Great news as I would like to include them more.

If they were to introduce dragon magic I would prefer that it was different than the magic that PC's use. No hand waving or material components needed. For combat dragons should have spoken dragonic power words, for no combat stuff for lairs they could do some rituals.

For old powerful smart dragons I could see them collecting this type of knowledge. I would prefer not to given them PC class levels if I wanted them to have some magic.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Fighters and commoners are normally not on the hit list of many of assassins (aka. adventurers). And when they are you can bet that they either invest heavily in traps and alarm spells or die quickly. A pity that dragons are no social creatures and don't have the ability to simply ask the local guards and trapmakers to get some traps. They have to rely on their own power.
Or on Minions. But when they need minions for everything then the minions are the real encounter.

And killing a bear in its sleep is easy for every experienced rogue, especially when he uses magic. But which rogue would kill a bear in its sleep? A dragon on the other hand is a quite worthwhile target.

Maybe this explains why a sapient, spellcasting flying dinosaur race didn't totally dominate the world.

Dragons might not be social creatures in the sense of "hanging out in groups, building families, clans and nations", but they are still capable of interacting with other people. If they wouldn't, nobody would bother slaying them, in fact. The only Dragon worth an assassination is a Dragon that has made contact with other sapientcreatures - to get his treasure, to create plots of world domination/betterment or to just gather a ton of useful information.

If you're not willing to allow Dragons to do this, then your point is no more important/valid/critical then the ones of people that don't want their Dragons to study casting magic missile or Endure Elements and prefer them being brutal beasts that oppress villages by fear and physical might.

 

[StarFyre]

Once again....

Derren has a point.

I also think dragons should have spellcasting, but I realize I think I use this a bit differently.

First; having dragons living in caves is boring. I liked having some dragons living in clouds, etc (silver dragons). TO do this, they need specific abilities and probably spells. I created custom spells for them, that are natural magical abilities. In my cosmology, magic is teh essence of the universe. Think of it, like the 'great serpent' hinted at in 2E now and then, and sometimes compared to asmodeus, lady of paint, elder breathren...all that jazzz. i just took my own spin on that stuff.

Anyways, books like draconomicon 2e, 3e and cult of the dragon 2e, have tons of dragon only spells. I think dragon should have, as derren pointed out, funtioality spells that help them accomplish their own goals, but it makes more sense after that, to have spells that they would create that make sense for them. Death Matrix is my favourite one and I can gaurantee, any high level party engaging a great wyrm in my campaign better be ready for something like this..via research, looking for signs of 'somethign amiss', etc. Ain't revenge great?

Back in 2E, they explained more of ecology and personality, etc. As the style of the game has gone more towards hack 'n slash (really, that is where you need most of the rules anyways to be fair), there was less need for this; and thus now, at the tail end of it; they get rid of any semblence of "a grand holistic" view on specific creatures and instead just make them cannon fodder.

Also, Derren - we've alwasy been buying D&D books that don't have all the rules we want, and many players make house rules for it. It's how it is; nothing we can really do about that. They can't make a game that appeals to everyone 100%. I think 50 to 60% is good enuff

Sanjay

 

[Sitara]

Another thing to keep in mind is the ton of ree actions and conditional actions (auto attack when flanked!) dragons have. They have more of these than any other monster!! go and read the 4e party vs dragon encounter play by play thats on the wizards site. (I forget the link )

Also, do not underestimate the power of their breath weapon. A red dragon can kill a freaking fire elemental with its (fire) breath weapon! seriously, you think they need spells to help them in combat? They need...traps? when they can roast a party of adventurers in an instant?

Seriously, spells , summoning and the ability to shapechange were three of the most annoying things about 3E dragons and I for one am glad they are gone!

The unique powers they will now have I hope are in keeping with their statuses as canny brutes (say maybe a power that lets them cause dragonfear or something, or increases their speed in flight, etc)

 

[Steely Dan]

I say dragons should have spell-casting like any standard race – if they choose to study it, I don't think a dragon should know how to cast Bigby's throbbing member or what have as a natural ability simply because it is a dragon.

 

[Derren]

Also, Derren - we've alwasy been buying D&D books that don't have all the rules we want, and many players make house rules for it. It's how it is; nothing we can really do about that. They can't make a game that appeals to everyone 100%. I think 50 to 60% is good enuff

Sanjay

Yes but the difference is that those books always had rules in it and said "If you don't like those rules, change them".
Now the book basically says "We do not provide any rules so you have to make them up yourself".

I buy books because the rules might be the ones I am looking for (=gambling for this 50-60% you mentioned). But now the chance that I like the rules is 0% as those rules aren't there.

Another thing to keep in mind is the ton of ree actions and conditional actions (auto attack when flanked!) dragons have. They have more of these than any other monster!! go and read the 4e party vs dragon encounter play by play thats on the wizards site. (I forget the link )

Also, do not underestimate the power of their breath weapon. A red dragon can kill a freaking fire elemental with its (fire) breath weapon! seriously, you think they need spells to help them in combat? They need...traps? when they can roast a party of adventurers in an instant?

Seriously, spells , summoning and the ability to shapechange were three of the most annoying things about 3E dragons and I for one am glad they are gone!

The unique powers they will now have I hope are in keeping with their statuses as canny brutes (say maybe a power that lets them cause dragonfear or something, or increases their speed in flight, etc)

That completely misses the point. Dragons don't need spells for combat, they need spells for everything else besides combat. What good is a breath weapon when the dragon can't prevent the adventurers from suprising it while it sleeps?