Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Firevalkyrie]

I'm thinking of the Onyxia fight in World of Warcraft as an iconic dragon battle. Onyxia doesn't have any magic spells as a human wizard might cast - she also doesn't need them. Her natural weapons can eliminate an entire raiding party of forty max-level adventurers all by themselves.

 

[FourthBear]

It seems to me that many people do not understand my point. Dragons don't need spells to be strong combatants (except for "Escape from overpowered ability" spells). They needs spells to be anything else than a combatant.

Again, as in the previous thread, you seem to be strongly implying that only spellcasters can have important roles outside of combat. The previous claim was that without the ability to create magical wards, a dragon would be utterly helpless against magical opponents and crippled without spellcasting minions. As I said before, I really hope that the 4e ruleset works very hard to eliminate the magical powers that make this situation (or perception) common. If at high levels non-spellwielders are only good for brute work or have no use to be anything other than a combatant, than the vast majority of monsters, PCs and NPCs should be altered such that *all* such are spellwielders. Why can't the dragon's intelligence and charisma make it a formidable threat without giving it arcane spells? I don't like the idea that for every problem that a creature can be presented with, they have to be given spells to take care of it. It seems like the laziest, least interesting solution. Dragons have to guard their lairs while they sleep? They've got to have an alarm spells. Dragons need traps in their lairs? They need traps spells. Dragons don't have the dexterity to manipulate small objects? They need telekinesis spells, too. Where does it end?

If specific high level arcane magic makes it necessary for others to have specific arcane defenses, doesn't that indicate that the first set of magic is too powerful? Just as the rule was that if every player took a certain power or spell, that indicated that it was too powerful, if particular arcane powers result in everyone taking particular arcane defenses against them that indicates the same, IMO.

 

[Steely Dan]

What good is a breath weapon when the dragon can't prevent the adventurers from suprising it while it sleeps?

What good is a fireball when the wizard can't prevent the dragon from surprising him while he sleeps…?

 

[Sitara]

Who says Dragons will be able to be surprised when they sleep?
They get a ton of free actions; perhapos they have a built in super version of the new 4e Alertness feat that disallows anyone to get combat advantage on them...even when they sleep.

Lastly, so what if the dragon is surprised when it sleeps? i mean...just read the hobbit.

 

[Derren]

If specific high level arcane magic makes it necessary for others to have specific arcane defenses, doesn't that indicate that the first set of magic is too powerful? Just as the rule was that if every player took a certain power or spell, that indicated that it was too powerful, if particular arcane powers result in everyone taking particular arcane defenses against them that indicates the same, IMO.

It is. Thats why I always say when someone complains about 3E "wizards with scales" that not dragons having spells is the problem, but magic being so powerful.
And it is not that it is strictly necessary to have magic to be "someone" (although in a high magic world like D&D not having magic as powerful and influental individual would be the exception). But dragons are handicapped in an additional way because they don't live in any coherent society and can't even craft things for themselves (no opposable thumbs)
Where others can buy things or otherwise exploit the society they live in, the dragon can only use magic or minions.
And to be a "good BBEG" the minions must be quite powerful, especially when they also should pose a threat to adventurers. In the end the minions will be the real BBEG because without them the dragon is helpless.

What good is a fireball when the wizard can't prevent the dragon from surprising him while he sleeps…?

Sure, but the wizard can prevent that with simple things like Rope Trick. The dragon can't.

Lastly, so what if the dragon is surprised when it sleeps? i mean...just read the hobbit.

Unlike Bilbo, adventurers are normally equipped with quite damaging weapons and know how to use the CdG rule.

 

[Steely Dan]

Sure, but the wizard can prevent that with simple things like Rope Trick. The dragon can't.

But not all wizards learn spells such as rope trick or alarm etc.

 

[Derren]

But not all wizards learn spells such as rope trick or alarm etc.

That are the wizards who are likely to be assassinated in their sleep when they make powerful enemies.

 

[Steely Dan]

Sorry, double-posting madness!

 

[FourthBear]

Sure, but the wizard can prevent that with simple things like Rope Trick. The dragon can't.

Wow, now the dragon needs Rope Trick, too? So far, the dragon should have Silent Image, Alarm, Mage Hand, Rope Trick, warding spells against scrying, warding spells against teleportation, unnamed spells to create its lair, unnamed spells to create the traps in its lair.

Do you have an example from 1e or 2e of a good example of a published dragon with these powers noted, such that you would consider it an adequately prepared dragon? I can't recall any that would seem to satisfy these requirements, unless the spells known were left utterly undescribed and therefore simply assumed to satisfy all requirements. I know that in the Giants/Drow series the only dragons found were strictly combatants. And from Dragon magazine, even Flame and Vesicant would not seem to satisfy this (both of those dragons used minions and pre-existing lairs for the most part).

 

[Steely Dan]

That are the wizards who are likely to be assassinated in their sleep when they make powerful enemies.

Okay, then the same goes for the dragon that chose not to learn rope trick or alarm etc.

Are you suggesting that all dragons should have an innate alarm/warning type spell-like ability?