D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[raleel]

In every edition, outside 4th, wizards were very unforgiving at low levels. every single edition. In addition, there have always been clear winners among the low levels spells, and sleep has always been one. If you take away that, it makes it even more difficult.

Sleep's big thing is not that it has a big area, it's that it is efficient at removing guys from the fight. 5d8 HP averages to 22.5HP - which can drop a lot of things. It doesn't have to drop lots, although it can, but it will almost definitely drop one thing for certain at low levels - no save, you go down. At low levels, this is a much bigger deal than 2d8 or 3d6 damage. Those one's might help your party drop something quicker, but initiatives are as they are and dropping one guy is almost always better than damaging two. The counterexample is where you can guarantee that the two are going to drop before they attack.

I get that, as you say, sleep is not your wizard's thing. But saying wizard's suck when you deliberately dismiss the single best first level spell out of personal choice is really quite like saying fighters suck and insisting on only using daggers in melee, or insisting on a two-hander rogue.

Particularly in something like HotDQ, which is high combat, and lots of lower level guys, sleep is super good. last night I ended two fights by dropping sleep. I prevented at least two rounds of combat and probably at least two party death's with them. Mr. Kobold has 5 hit points, +4 to hit, 1d4+2 damage, AC12. if you can pack them in like tuna cans, thunderwave is going to be better. but that doesn't normally happen. Sleep will almost definitely drop 3, and on average will take down 4. Do you want to be next to 4 kobolds? No. can your party take down 4 kobolds? maybe. Maybe not. I bet at least one of them gets through and does damage. With sleep - that doesn't happen. They go down and stay down.

This brings me to my next point - orcs are not the baseline anymore. Kobolds are. Orcs are cr 1/2, which means approximately 1 for every 2 people in your party at level 1. Kobolds are CR 1/8, which means 2 for every person in your party. Very big difference. Orcs have 15 hit points, kobolds have 5. Don't blame the spell if the monster tripled his hit points

Your spell choices say rough and tumble up close mage, and yet, I think you have the urge to stay back, based on your shocking hand comment. This is going to hinder your damage. You have, at level 1, close range, close range, protection, protect, limited use ranged battlefield control spell. Try mixing those up a bit - you don't need thunderwave and burning hands. The damage difference is insignificant, the area of thunderwave is better, and it has a push. It is, without a doubt IMO, a significantly better spell outside of stealth.

I would recommend (and probably through much telling me I'm wrong) against taking Mage armor at low level. Why? Well, it is a short cast, 8 hours duration, and solid AC. But at low levels, ever single spell slot has to have strong impact. You can feel that with your low damage rolls and how painful they are. +3 AC for 8 hours is good, but it just might not come up. If you have a good front line, it might not come up much at all. Staying in stealth, outside of 30' (and preferably outside of 60') is better. Stick to cover, play like you have a d4 HD.

Now, I like Fog Cloud, but... well... quite frankly, it's somewhat lackluster. It is fairly big, but it is limited use in combat. Outside of combat it's actually not bad at all, but, like I said, every single spell slot needs to be kinda best of breed when you have not gotten many spells yet and your slots are rare. It might work for you, but man, you gotta work for it a bit.

True Strike is quite awful. No one should take it. You can get the same thing out of an owl familiar that uses his own action on it.

Speaking of which, where is your familiar? Owl familiar has dark vision to 120', can carry 22 pounds, can give you a Help action outside of your normal action with little chance of reprisal, can drop oil flasks (hit the splash with a firebolt for a mini wall of fire) and has advantage on perception checks. He is quite wonderful, and you should have one.

Short of it is this - 5e wizards look like a 1-3e wizard with their classic spells and their vancian progression, but they share a good chunk with 4e wizards, and that was a controller. Their job is almost never to drop big damage - certainly not until high levels. Their job is to control, prevent damage, and make the lives of the bad guys very difficult so Mr. Greatsword Vengeance Paladin can skewer them. Sorcerers and warlocks are now the damage at range guys, and it shows. Your cantrips are your major encounter-to-encounter damage until you get to mid levels. Once you get some slots (certainly at least 1 slot per encounter), you need to apply very careful consideration to every slot.

If you have not read this guide - http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4157906 - is quite good. Lots of active commentary, and lots of folks (including myself - I did not write most of it, but I made some small suggestions) willing to answer questions, make recommendations. Everyone there likes wizards a lot.

My own experience with HotDQ as a gnome wizard - sneak sneak sneak, minor illusion to distract guards prevented one combat, got us surprise in 2 more combats, ended 2 combats with sleep, provided advantage on attack which dropped guy using familiar, provided flaming area using familiar that allowed grapple to use move action to burn cultist to death, preventing his action. I would say, if I was to give a performance review - my admonishments to sneak saved at least 2 lives, my minor illusions saved 2 lives, my sleeps saved TPK twice, and my familiar dropped 2 guys. Not bad at all for not doing any direct damage. I am Batman.

 

[KidSnide]

The low-level wizard in my game has dominated the humanoid fights through judicious use of Sleep. Sure, he does less damage than the other characters with cantrips, but Fire Bolt is hardly a waste of time and magic missile gives the wizard a better average damage output than any other PC (for that one round).

The dynamic is pretty much how I remember 1e/2e, except that the wizard isn't nearly as boring during the off-spell rounds.

-KS

 

[KarinsDad]

During our last encounter, my 3rd-level arcane trickster rogue made great tactical use of grease against some mounted foes (ouch) and sleep against a guy trying to flee the combat who we wanted to question.

Awesome.

I imagine if I had twice as many spells I'd probably be doing stuff like use silent image to erect false walls and cut off half the enemies, phantasmal force as a single-target lockdown (as an illusion it requires the target's action to make an Investigation check, instead of "save ends" like with hold person and most other lockdowns), and maybe tossing the occasional flaming sphere around for a while to dish 2d6 damage per round as a bonus action. I'd also like to point out that mirror image is a fantastic defensive spell that doesn't require concentration. Also I really hope you used true strike on the round before you unleashed scorching ray for the greatly increased hit rate and 26% chance to crit at least once.

Yeah, the school of Illusion has some traction.

As for Flaming Sphere, I considered it. But, most combats last 3 to 4 rounds tops.

Even if I cast it in round one, that's at most 8D6 damage many encounters. Less most of the time. I was thinking that the potential 6D6 damage of Scorching Ray (without a concentration usage) in a single round is better than 2D6 per round.

It's a toss up. Flaming Sphere could definitely gain traction in a really tough and long fight if the wizard knows to cast it early. On the other hand from an action economy / resource POV, it's better to do a lot of damage quickly to decrease the number of foes (and not be using a concentration). Potatoes, putatoes.


As for Mirror Image, I purposely have not taken a single defensive for myself second level spell. I'm trying to focus on affecting the battle, not surviving the battle. Shield and Arcane Ward seem to be sufficient.


And True Strike before Scorching Ray is actually a bad suggestion as can be seen by the math below (AC 13, +6 to hit Wizard):

True Strike followed by Scorching Ray

0.8125	7	0.0975	14	7.0525 * 1
0.65	7	0.05	14	5.25 * 2
				17.5525

Scorching Ray followed by Chill Touch

0.65	7	0.05	14	5.25 * 3
0.65	4.5	0.05	9	3.375 * 1
				19.125

Not only does True Strike do less overall damage, it does it a round later than in the second scenario.

Seriously, rope trick???

Yeah. I was hoping that it would be a good "take a short rest whenever we want to" power that could really help out the party. There have been a few times where we wanted to take a short rest and couldn't. Haven't actually used it yet.

Grasping at straws here to help out the team.

 

[Celtavian]

Chill Touch does not prevent healing. NPCs never heal. They never regenerate at low levels. I use Chill Touch quite often and even the disadvantage is a joke because it's a ranged attack.

Chill Touch prevents target from regaining hit points until start of next turn.

And no, one cannot do consistent damage with cantrips. I roll low with cantrips all of the time. I would be much better off using a light crossbow because if I hit, my PC would at least do a minimum of 3 points of damage. I do 1 or 2 points of damage with cantrips a lot.

Consistent damage over time. It's no different than a martial player rolling his dice.

Shocking Grasp does prevent reactions, but NPCs rarely have reactions. And it's touch. Trust me. Wizards are rarely in touch range. A Reactions section is too much extra stuff on a monster sheet for a DM to handle. Except for Opportunity Attacks, monster reactions are almost non-existent. Out of 169 monsters in the DMG pdf, 3 of them have a special reaction. So the wizard is going to move up to the monster, do Shocking Grasp on it, and now the monster cannot do an opportunity attack if the wizard hits? If the wizard misses, then the wizard is next to the monster. Not exactly a good plan.

Opportunity attacks are reactions. You hit a creature with Shocking Grasp and you can move out of range without using Disengage. I've seen other reaction abilities like Parry that you can disrupt.

And stopping a reaction until the start of the monster's next turn helps the wizard to move away, but it's not until the start of the wizard's next turn (which would make it last an entire round). The effect lasts for less than a round which means that it often does nothing for other PCs. Shy of a particular initiative order, a Wizard cannot use this to move in, attack, and move back away and also help a fellow PC. It serves one minor purpose in letting a wizard both attack and move away (course, nothing usually stops the NPC from just following the wizard). This is really a weak effect.

You can Shocking Grasp and move away. You're not making much sense with this post. It lasts until the start of your next turn. You can use it to move in, attack, and move away. Movement can be done at any time you have it left. So you move in, attack, and move out as long as you don't use more than 25 or 30 feet or whatever your move is. It's not a weak effect and can be very useful.

Shield lasts a single turn. It used to last multiple encounters. Mage Armor is weaker (it does have a longer duration).

Shield is awesome. You can use it after you know the roll. So it's basically a guaranteed miss and a much higher AC. +5 AC in this game is much better than +4 AC in 3E. Mage Armor is what it is. Always has been mostly weak. It's a 13 AC. Mage Armor in 3E was 14. What's the difference?

Sleep used to affect 4 hit dice of creatures. Now, is does 5D6 (~4 HD), but creatures have more hit dice. It used to affect 4 Orcs or 1 Ogre, now it affects 1.67 Orcs or 0.4 of an Ogre.

Sleep spell does 5d8 hit points based on current hit points. So the martials beat on a guy, you take a few down with sleep. It's no save. It's an awesome spell. I've used it to great effect.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter used to last multiple rounds and the foe was basically incapacitated. I don't have the book in front of me, but I suspect that the foe gets a save every round now and it's probably a much weaker effect.

It isn't weaker. The target is prone and can do nothing. It does get a save every round, so it probably won't last long at low level. You have to remember many monsters don't get saving throw bonuses. Their modifier is based on their stat. Tasha's works very well for a round or two on brutes. It will work better as your proficiency rises.

There are very few monsters in the MM that are vulnerable to damage, hence, the option to pick the proper damaging spell rarely occurs now.

There weren't many vulnerable in previous editions low level wizards could exploit. At least now you don't have to deal with Spell Resistance and everything getting a save bonus.

Sorry, not seeing where wizards are really better off now than they were before. Practically every spell is weaker. Practically every spell has a significantly lesser effect. Practically every save spell results in a save every round. The wizard can only use one buff spell (which tends to be weaker than earlier editions). And the cantrips really are a joke.

You're exaggerating at this point. This game is different. You should learn what works and what doesn't. I'm adapting and having fun doing it. I find the wizard to be quite effective even at low level. In some ways more effective than previous edition wizards because I always have something to do with Cantrips. Low level wizards were never that powerful, not sure why you are claiming they were.

Cantrips are not a joke. If you think they are, you're a bad wizard. Fire Bolt is safe long range damage. Minor Image is great for hiding, scouting, and social interactions. Chill Touch is great for hammering any creature that regains hit points. Shocking Grasp is a nice way to do damage and getting away without having to use Disengage.

Granted, if someone takes an Elven Wizard with a 14 Dex using a Longbow, yes, I can see that particular wizard contributing. But other races???

I play a Forest Gnome. I've contributed substantially. Your complaints aren't my experience. I plan the use of my Sleep spell to coincide with the martials engaging and taking hit points down some, so I can affect more targets. Tasha's Hideous Laughter lasting for even a single round can turn a combat into a trivial encounter. It affects about everything since far less is immune to enchantments and there are no language dependent requirements.

Your complaints don't hold much water. It sounds more like you haven't learned what's best to use now. Nothing is like the old ways. Fighters and barbarians aren't getting 30 point crits at 1st or 2nd level. Archers aren't firing 2 shots at early levels. And wizards aren't getting to use color spray to trivialize encounters. That in no way means wizards aren't effective. It's a different game. You have to learn how you synergize with your party.

I find the wizard quite fun. I like the Cantrips to add damage during combats I don't need to expend spells on. I find strategic use of spell power to be effective. Maybe you'll never like the toned down 5E version of the wizard. I don't know. I feel they are in line with what other classes can do.

 

[Rhenny]

I'm playing an evoker (basic) in the Phandelver adventure and I love it. Shield saved my life against the bugbear in cave and sleep let me end the fight with the bugbear after it got hit once by the figher (who ended up getting one-shot, crit-killed by the bugbear - if I had only gotten to the group a second earlier...oh well thems the breaks). Being able to sculpt burning hands also allows me to use the spell much more frequently so there are more opportunities to use it for great effect. Also, remember, if you have 2nd level slots and you want to do more damage, you can use burning hands, sleep or thunderwave, etc. as a 2nd level spell and add an extra die to the damage.

In addition to the combat spells, it is awesome to take 10 minutes and cast rituals like detect magic or identify. Heck, even the message cantrip has come in handy for communicating with comrades, NPCs or monsters through doors or windows.

We've been playing on and off so we are only at 2nd level (at the cusp of 3rd), but overall I feel that my PC is interesting and contributes just as much if not more than others.

I think that some people like the feel of the ponderous wizard who doesn't always break out a big spell, but saves it up for the right moment. Depending on the DM and the adventure, the right moment may come along more or less often, so experiences can change. Plus, some DMs and adventures give more opportunity for PCs to use intelligence (arcana or history or search). This gives the wizard an advantage in exploration and interaction. Again, results vary by DM/adventure and personality of player.

 

[mcintma]

Low-mid level wizard is fine, a solid middle-tier class IME/IMO.

High level wizard, with ultra-few 6-9th slots and almost everything resistant to energy & magic, auto-saving legendaries, etc. Now that is my worry - we'll see when enough people have had enough time to put the system through its paces at HL.

 

[KarinsDad]

So over the course of the day you bothered to cast 2 offensive spells and ended up doing 21 damage. Where is the problem?

You mean like the Rogue being able to do this in a single round nearly once per encounter? If you are not going to take the discussion seriously, ...

You seem overly intent on casting as few spells as possible over the course of a game day which was made pretty clear with your witchbolt thread where everyone told you not to use it because it sucks and you insisted on using it anyway.

Never once used Witch Bolt. Wanted to, but misread it. Wanted to use it with True Strike, but again, not possible. Wanted to prep it. Didn't do that after the first gaming day, even after the DM houseruled the spell.

But, just goes to prove my point that Wizard spells are pretty darn lame. Is that the point you were trying to make?

I'd say use flaming sphere to minimize spell use and maximize damage, but it sounds like your combats are so easy and short there isn't a lot to be done anyway.

We had two short and easy fights yesterday, and two harder ones. One fight outnumbered 9 to 7 (with one large foe, one NPC ally) and one fight outnumbered 12 to 7 (with three large foes). None of these guys were one hit wonders and the large foes typically took 4 hits. These fights are really closer to 9 to 6.5 and 12 to 6.5 if the Wizard rarely contributes. If you don't think that numbers matter in 5E, ...

My problem in both of those fights was trying to get close enough to target multiple bad guys with first level area spells without targeting allies. I could have used up multiple Scorching Rays, but when the other PCs are often doing 8 to 15 points of damage, yes, I do like to save my few second level 6D6 maximum spells for when they really matter (like when an ally is surrounded or something). If the PCs are doing fine and nobody is in trouble, I typically do not blow through my highest level spells. Not that they do that much anyway.

And Flaming Sphere is a spell that really isn't going to change the course of battle too often. It might maximize the Wizard's damage, but still nowhere near the Rogue or Fighter. Or the Ranger archer that is doing 1D6 extra damage each round with the first level Hunter's Mark spell encounter after encounter. It's pretty sad that a second level wizard spell cannot catch up to the daily damage that a first level semi-spell caster spell can often manage.

 

[raleel]

That's why you try not to hit monsters with those slots. To many chances to burn the slot. Use those slots to augment yourself and others, or to summon, or otherwise not compete with magic resistance. Let the grunts go in there and beat them up.

 

[KarinsDad]

Chill Touch prevents target from regaining hit points until start of next turn.

Seriously. How often does this come up in people's games? How often do NPCs heal?

How often in your game did it actually prevent a target from regaining hit points? Ever?

 

[raleel]

Seriously. How often does this come up in people's games? How often do NPCs heal?

How often in your game did it actually prevent a target from regaining hit points? Ever?

Very rarely in my games. I personally think it's not that useful, and not a cantrip I would take before level 10. The conditions of usefulness are just too rare earlier than that (regeneration, healers) and there are other ways to deal with them. Regeneration often has a counter (radiant on vampires and many undead, acid or fire on trolls, fire on a couple of undead as well). I prefer to eliminate healers entirely rather than counter their healing. They are a priority target, sometimes even over a wizard.

I might take it if there were a lot of undead and I didn't have a cleric. I might take it if I was in a slaadi-heavy campaign. Lowest non-tadpole slaadi is CR 5, though.

There are better options in most cases. It's not horrible though.