D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[raleel]

You mean like the Rogue being able to do this in a single round nearly once per encounter? If you are not going to take the discussion seriously, ...

Never once used Witch Bolt. Wanted to, but misread it. Wanted to use it with True Strike, but again, not possible. Wanted to prep it. Didn't do that after the first gaming day, even after the DM houseruled the spell.

But, just goes to prove my point that Wizard spells are pretty darn lame. Is that the point you were trying to make?

some of them are of highly limited usefulness. Witch bolt is high damage, but high cost. there may be situations where it is useful. I don't think it's worth spending a low level slot on. Maybe at higher level. I personally think it's a horrible spell, and not the wizard's job.

We had two short and easy fights yesterday, and two harder ones. One fight outnumbered 9 to 7 (with one large foe, one NPC ally) and one fight outnumbered 12 to 7 (with three large foes). None of these guys were one hit wonders and the large foes typically took 4 hits. These fights are really closer to 9 to 6.5 and 12 to 6.5 if the Wizard rarely contributes. If you don't think that numbers matter in 5E, ...

Absolutely. This is a big deal in 5e. Numbers matter much more because they are likely to hit you, and damage as a percent of HP is higher. That is also why sleep is super-powerful at low levels. You are the only person who can do that at low levels. Even at high levels, if you are fighting 10 guys, the fighter or the rogue or anyone else is going to have a hard time taking that on. But the wizard? Bam, force cage, motherf*%*@#@! your are out!

My problem in both of those fights was trying to get close enough to target multiple bad guys with first level area spells without targeting allies.

getting close as a wizard is not good. Never do it unless you are darn sure you are getting out just fine. Another reason why I don't like burning hands, and why I tolerate thunderwave. Thunderwave has a push, and you can move away after protentially.

I could have used up multiple Scorching Rays, but when the other PCs are often doing 8 to 15 points of damage, yes, I do like to save my few second level 6D6 maximum spells for when they really matter (like when an ally is surrounded or something). If the PCs are doing fine and nobody is in trouble, I typically do not blow through my highest level spells. Not that they do that much anyway.

In 4e, the wizard's job was not to do damage. Everyone (except some wizard players) liked that. And, in truth, it made all the non-wizards a lot better. it really stamps down that whole wizard vs fighter thing. Wizard sets them up, fighter knocks them down. The damage them mentality needs to be broken.

And Flaming Sphere is a spell that really isn't going to change the course of battle too often. It might maximize the Wizard's damage, but still nowhere near the Rogue or Fighter. Or the Ranger archer that is doing 1D6 extra damage each round with the first level Hunter's Mark spell encounter after encounter. It's pretty sad that a second level wizard spell cannot catch up to the daily damage that a first level semi-spell caster spell can often manage.

poppycock. it's not a single damage monster, but it's no slouch. 2d6/1d6 vs a dex save. Spell DC around 14 means that you are going to be pulling 2d6 more often than not, and your fighter probably does 0 damage on a miss. You don't. Roll it into a group. Your fighter cannot do 2d6 to 3-4 guys. And you are moving it as a bonus action, with free action concentrate! Your fighter is very likely NOT doing 2d6+1d10 every single round to one guy, then hit the guys within 5' for 2d6/1d6. On top of that, it lights things on fire, so you can toss oil (or heck, have the owl drop it) to turn the battlefield into fire.

It's really important, and I'm going to repeat it - not to be a condescending ass, but because it is just that important. The wizard's job is not to do huge drop-them damage. It hasn't been since 4e. This is because there was no point to playing fighters and other classes at a certain point - somewhere around level 5-9. They fixed this by trimming wizard and buffing fighters. The wizard's job is to soften, make the enemy suck, control, deny damage, and otherwise provide miscellaneous support that can't be acquired from other sources.

IMO, it makes it a much better game, and makes wizard players a special breed. It caters to a type that would normally play wizard anyways, but lets them really put their mind-muscles to work.

 

[sithramir]

I agree with you [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION]. Wizards really seem to fall to the bottom in this edition.

People focus on "abjurer" but that has little to do with how he's performing at these levels. There aren't real bonus's or negatives so he's a Wizard at this point since his focus wouldn't affect what's happening at these levels for spells generally.

The concentration rules really hurt wizards because you just can't have a lot of defensive spells AND do offensive spells as much now. I don't mind the concentration and saves on each round if that really balanced most of the spells down but there should be defensive and offensive spell concentration or something.

I"ve kind of moved to using Bards now. The spells people mention like Suggestion, Sleep are on the bard's list anyways, except the Bard gets skills, light armour, and other small benefits too. College of Lore basically allows you to get a few extra's to be similar to a wizard at level 6/10, etc. but I've found College of Valor is to my liking because I get medium armour and a shield for AC, two attacks at level 6 so i'm able to be a semi fighter when not using spells and still able to use sleep spells AND healing from cure light wounds. Pop in haste at level 10 and i'm getting 3 attacks!

I definitely am frustrated with the higher HP's monsters have because it makes some of the wizard spells a lot weaker (cantrips especially). I know Evokers get it but I was thinking there should be a feat to add your spell modifier to damage on Cantrips or something similar to try to help.

I keep thinking about level 5 where cantrips get more damage but so do martial classes. They get full attack WITH movement in this edition so spells lose some luster because of that. I actually like it but it hurts casters/archers some now that there's no movement rounds to get full attacks.

At least you aren't a sorcerer. Man do they have it bad. Only 2 spells known at first level and only learning ONE new spell at every level! Needing a shield or mage armor spell means you really just get 1! You don't even get more spells per day! Look at the Bard and then Sorcerer/Wizard and see how open the gained powers are even though all 3 are full casters?

 

[sithramir]

That's why you try not to hit monsters with those slots. To many chances to burn the slot. Use those slots to augment yourself and others, or to summon, or otherwise not compete with magic resistance. Let the grunts go in there and beat them up.

Can you elaborate? Summon what? Augment how?

And a question: Would you play a wizard if the sleep spell didn't exist? It seems to be making such an impact about it's power. Seems like it shouldn't be a deciding factor on wizards. Plus sorcerer's and bards get it so it's not unique to Wizards anyways.

 

[KarinsDad]

poppycock. it's not a single damage monster, but it's no slouch. 2d6/1d6 vs a dex save. Spell DC around 14 means that you are going to be pulling 2d6 more often than not, and your fighter probably does 0 damage on a miss. You don't. Roll it into a group. Your fighter cannot do 2d6 to 3-4 guys. And you are moving it as a bonus action, with free action concentrate! Your fighter is very likely NOT doing 2d6+1d10 every single round to one guy, then hit the guys within 5' for 2d6/1d6. On top of that, it lights things on fire, so you can toss oil (or heck, have the owl drop it) to turn the battlefield into fire.

poppycock.

You cannot roll it into a group too easily. It only affects the first NPC that it actually rams into. Sure, one NPC often has 35% to 50% chance to save for 3 damage instead of 7, but it's a one encounter spell. It only damages creatures (including PCs) that end their turn next to it (not one that starts its turn next to it). Unless a foe has multiple PCs around him, most foes can easily get away. It's situational. It's also fire damage (which is the damage most likely to be resisted or immune to). Unlike Hunter's Mark, all of the NPCs know who is using this spell and they can focus attacks on the wizard. In a 3 encounter fight cast in the first round, and a 35% chance to save, it does 17 more damage. With a 50% chance to save for high Dex foes, that's 15 points.

Hunter's Mark at level one can easily do 7 to 10 extra hit points per encounter. NPCs do not necessarily know that it is even happening. If the ranger never gets hit or never fails a con check, he can easily use this for 2 to 4 encounters. Sure, it stops with a short rest (shy of being used in a third level slot). But it's easily a match for Flaming Sphere.

 

[raleel]

I agree with you [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION]. Wizards really seem to fall to the bottom in this edition.

People focus on "abjurer" but that has little to do with how he's performing at these levels. There aren't real bonus's or negatives so he's a Wizard at this point since his focus wouldn't affect what's happening at these levels for spells generally.

I agree that there is a focus on the schools that really doesn't need to be there. It's a nice add, but it's generally not going to be make or break

As for falling to the bottom - I disagree. I think there is an illusion of 1-3e look, but it plays closer to a 4e wizard. 4e wizards were part of a team, and had a good role.

The concentration rules really hurt wizards because you just can't have a lot of defensive spells AND do offensive spells as much now. I don't mind the concentration and saves on each round if that really balanced most of the spells down but there should be defensive and offensive spell concentration or something.

Concentration is a big balancing point. That, bonus actions, and advantage/disadvantage not stacking like you might think. Those three things really control the game in many ways.

There are some spells outside of the bounds of concentration, and they are generally well received. however, they are also limited. They don't shut down fights often.

I"ve kind of moved to using Bards now. The spells people mention like Suggestion, Sleep are on the bard's list anyways, except the Bard gets skills, light armour, and other small benefits too. College of Lore basically allows you to get a few extra's to be similar to a wizard at level 6/10, etc. but I've found College of Valor is to my liking because I get medium armour and a shield for AC, two attacks at level 6 so i'm able to be a semi fighter when not using spells and still able to use sleep spells AND healing from cure light wounds. Pop in haste at level 10 and i'm getting 3 attacks!

Great! I like bards in this edition as well. I'm quite happy with what they've done with them.

I definitely am frustrated with the higher HP's monsters have because it makes some of the wizard spells a lot weaker (cantrips especially). I know Evokers get it but I was thinking there should be a feat to add your spell modifier to damage on Cantrips or something similar to try to help.

I think a feat would be boring The damage is a little lighter than a fighter at the same level, but scales roughly the same, and you get other options. The reason why it's like that is so you don't step on the fighter's toes. If you want to be a shooter, play a fighter Or do a warlock or a sorcerer. Those are cool classes too.

I keep thinking about level 5 where cantrips get more damage but so do martial classes. They get full attack WITH movement in this edition so spells lose some luster because of that. I actually like it but it hurts casters/archers some now that there's no movement rounds to get full attacks.

Yes. You are sensing a balance point there. it's not fun to be the king and then have to share the throne sometimes But it is an important step. They had to make space for the other classes to shine.

On the plus side, it makes archers and movement a little easier and maybe makes archers a little more interesting.

At least you aren't a sorcerer. Man do they have it bad. Only 2 spells known at first level and only learning ONE new spell at every level! Needing a shield or mage armor spell means you really just get 1! You don't even get more spells per day! Look at the Bard and then Sorcerer/Wizard and see how open the gained powers are even though all 3 are full casters?

you do get more spells per day - look at your slot progression. Sorcerers are designed to be "I can do this one thing, and I know all the ways to make it awesome and have absolutely the optimal impact with my thing". That and 4 cantrips because they are supposed to use them more at first, because they won't have the right place to use their 2-7 spells always.

Again, I personally dislike mage armor for low level casters. I know you feel like you want it, but it means you are going to be pew pew pewing with fire bolt much more. Shield I'll make an exception for, even though I also think it sucks - it is a reaction and can get you out of hot water. It should come with a free Message that tells the fighter to get his butt to the caster now

 

[KarinsDad]

I"ve kind of moved to using Bards now.

Bards are sweeter at lower levels than wizards. However, a melee Bard tends to be out of the question (or at least at our table with a halfling Bard with low AC, and weaker weapons).

 

[fuindordm]

What is the problem with using True Strike to hit with witch bolt? You can drop concentration any time. So you drop TS after you hit, and start concentrating on the bolt instead.

I mean, I guess a DM could rule that there is a split second of overlap there that prevents the combo from working, but it seems really harsh.

 

[Jester David]

I'm sorry you've been having a bad experience playing a wizard.

But I can't say hearing one person talk about their single experience playing a wizard in an edition during a prewritten campaign is entirely conclusive. There's too many variables: the dice rolls, the DM, the build, the interaction between the build and the adventure, tactical choices, and the player's attitude.
Really, that last factor is pretty darn huge: if you set out to have fun and enjoy yourself, it's so much harder for the game to stop you. And if you expect disappointment you'll always find it. And you have practically no control over the dice, the DM, and the adventure (and changing build is seldom not an option), so sometimes changing one's attitude is all that can be done.

Generally, I try and make the character fun to play, focusing on their personality and quirks. That way even if the adventure doesn't give me anything to work with, the dice hate me, and the game isn't inherently working with me, I can still make my own entertainment and find something fun to do or say.


I do hope your experience improves.

 

[aramis erak]

What is the problem with using True Strike to hit with witch bolt? You can drop concentration any time. So you drop TS after you hit, and start concentrating on the bolt instead.

I mean, I guess a DM could rule that there is a split second of overlap there that prevents the combo from working, but it seems really harsh.

You lose concentration when you start to cast the second concentration spell.

 

[Grimstaff]

I played a Wizard (3rd lvl Evoker) through the Mines of Madness, found it to be a versatile, enjoyable character. Skills, rituals, and Cantrips were every bit as useful as the "big gun" spells, which turned the tide of more than one battle. From that experience, the danger of the low-level wizard is not in how much damage it does, but how it can damage whole groups of monsters all at once.