Low-Magic Campaign

GlassJaw

Hero
GlassJaw said:
Another correlation I commonly see with regards to low-magic settings is making healing a lot harder and take much longer.

Nonsense, that. D&D absolutely depends on hps & and the frequent, instant restoration thereof for the functioning of its combat system and it's modeling of action and risk in general.

5e is a distant second-best at coping with the absence of magical healing thanks to the HD mechanic. And, well nothing else, really. In 4e, not only did you have surges, but the Warlord could take on the related leader functions.

What I meant is that a low-magic setting does not have to include harsher healing rules. Simply not having access to magical healing will be harsh enough. That said, I do like the idea of requiring a resource to be spent for healing (like a "charge" of a healer's kit). I tend to think of a low-magic campaign as placing importance on resource-management as opposed to simply cranking up the harshness of the survival mechanics.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
What I meant is that a low-magic setting does not have to include harsher healing rules. Simply not having access to magical healing will be harsh enough.
Too much, IMHO. Hps, rather cycling quickly or slowing being ground away by attrition of HD & spell resources, are the barometer of D&D challenges. Restricting recovery of hps slows the game down, not just in the sense of pacing relative to time in the world, but in the play experience, making it grueling and un-heroic. There's no need for that, simply to reduce the prevalence of magic in the setting...

That said, I do like the idea of requiring a resource to be spent for healing (like a "charge" of a healer's kit). I tend to think of a low-magic campaign as placing importance on resource-management as opposed to simply cranking up the harshness of the survival mechanics.
High-magic games are very much resource-management, the resource being slots. Low/no-magic games have to manage HD, but that's a much tighter resource, with fewer functions, so there's less to it. Further restricting that and similar resources is exactly the wrong way to go, which is why a share your perplexity with the idea of resorting to the 'gritty' option.

One way the 'gritty' option could be of use would be if it /only/ applied to magical resources, like slots. So a Warlock can recharge his slots in a day, the wizard needs a week of uninterrupted contemplation and study (maybe some Black Lotus, too, to get all REH), the Fighter is good to go with another Second Wind & Action Surge after an hour...
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Too much, IMHO. Hps, rather cycling quickly or slowing being ground away by attrition of HD & spell resources, are the barometer of D&D challenges. Restricting recovery of hps slows the game down, not just in the sense of pacing relative to time in the world, but in the play experience, making it grueling and un-heroic. There's no need for that, simply to reduce the prevalence of magic in the setting...

High-magic games are very much resource-management, the resource being slots. Low/no-magic games have to manage HD, but that's a much tighter resource, with fewer functions, so there's less to it. Further restricting that and similar resources is exactly the wrong way to go, which is why a share your perplexity with the idea of resorting to the 'gritty' option.

I think people need to either visit the earlier editions of D&D or the many, many, many fantasy rpgs out there that have far more gritty healing rules than 5th Edition and get a sense of proportion.

Game pacing is down to the GM. More realistic healing rules adds tension and drama, and in 39 years of roleplaying I have never once found gritty rules on wounds and healing, slow full recovery times or lack of MMO-style fast magical healing to make a game 'gruelling and un-heroic'.

It is entirely misleading to state that a game will be bad with anything but fast healing rules. Fast healing comes most often in D&D (in every edition) from magic, so stating that low magic doesn't mean gritty healing is a very difficult point to logically support in light of this fact.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
There might be one such sorcerer active in the world at a time, and no comparable power is typically accessible to Conan or whatever allies he may have at the time. That's low-magic compared to FR, by a huge margin, for instance.

None of what you have said here is right, except that it is lower magic than FR... but then what isn't!?

There are quite a number of casters, there are even multiple sorcerous societies.

Conan's allies are on more than one occasion sorcerer's and on one occasion the most powerful magical artefact in the world is used by a sorcerer allied to Conan.

I would suggest reading all the stories written by Howard, and then taking a look at Modiphius' Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of for a 'Howard Society' approved iteration of the magic of the Conan stories.

It is far more prevalent than you make out.

Just a few sorcerous acts in the Conan stories;

Mesmerism of the voice and eyes used to command large groups of enemy soldiers, or to force someone to kill themselves.

The vitrified bones of dinosaurs re-animated with sorcerous flesh on them to create 'dragons'.

A tower of glass-like stone studded with gems a hundred feet high built in a single night using magic.

Army-slaying mass disease/death spell.

Summoning 'demon' flying mounts.

Travelling the ether into previous ages.

Entering the Realm of Dreams.

Fireballs! (yes - see the Seers of Yimsha)

Summoning storms with sorcery.

Demon summoning/binding.

Destroying the bodies of enemies using magic (melting the flesh after merely pointing a finger)

Earthquakes.


Need I go on?
 


CapnZapp

Legend
It ('gritty' rest option) just creates a slower pace in the campaign, the non-casters also have to rest for a long time to get their HD back, for instance.
I wasn't talking about the gritty rest option in isolation. I was talking about the general idea to nerf casters.

But the way to make even nerfed casters palatable to players is to make magic something rare, wondrous and even feared.

Even if you nerf spellcasters (relative to martials) a player could still play one, assuming that the effects are magnified. For instance, if monsters flee when they see a Fireball, it might not matter much that its effects are nerfed visavi cold steel.

At the very least, it would retain the viability of hybrid characters. You might still see an Eldritch Knight with a couple of Wizard levels, for instance, even if nobody wants to play a full-blown Wizard anymore...
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Need I go on?
No, there's scene-setting and plot-device magic and the occassional powerful magic-wielding villain in S&S.
Absent from the genre, however is the plentiful magic items and perfectly safe, versatile, daily casting of D&D.

I think people need to either visit the earlier editions of D&D or the many, many, many fantasy rpgs out there that have far more gritty healing rules than 5th Edition and get a sense of proportion.
Been playing D&D since 1980, the painfully slow natural healing wasn't 'gritty,' it was irrelevant, healing took place at the rate of the cleric re-preparing his spells. Unless you used the optional rule and had to take a week off every time someone dropped to 0. That was one of the reasons low/no-magic didn't work, and why the bandaid cleric was a strereotype.

Game pacing is down to the GM.
Not if he wants to retain the resourve-management aspect of the game, then it's dictated.

I have never once found gritty rules on wounds and healing, slow full recovery times or lack of MMO-style fast magical healing to make a game 'gruelling and un-heroic'.
Calling a perennial feature of all eds of D&D 'MMO-like' seems strange to me, but, then, I don't play MMOs, my impression of fast magical healing comes from decades of D&D. But, sure, you may like grueling and un-heroic, that's down to preference.

It is entirely misleading to state that a game will be bad with anything but fast healing rules
The game is 'bad' until the DM 'fixes' it.

In a standard high-magic game, slow natural healing just shifts the burden back to slots. So clerics (all casters with Cure Wounds on their lists) must devote more of them to healing, and the party must recover slots more often. Fantastic if you're playing a caster without that burden, but otherwise not the game at its most functional.

OTOH, if you use slower recovery across the board, for healing, slots, &c, all you do is shift the pacing, you to avoid a 5min work week instead of a 5MWD.

.
Fast healing comes most often in D&D (in every edition) from magic, so stating that low magic doesn't mean gritty healing is a very difficult point to logically support in light of this fact.
Logically? If you want to invoke logic, you should refrain from blatantly begging the question and appealing to tradition.

Low-magic has been used many different was in the games community over the decades, from merely fewer magic items waiting to be found, to casters/items being extremely rare in the setting, but casters still part of the PC party, neither of those make fast magical healing unavailable, though in some editions lack of magic items could still be problematic in other ways. But, low-magic could also mean restrictions on the power of PC casters, or even no PC casters, at all, and that was distinctly problematic in all eds prior to 4e (the exception to so many 'you could never do that in D&D' generalizations), where it was casually seamless, a group could just happen to choose all 'martial' characters, and the game remained workable.
In 5e, HD and overnight healing mitigate some of the problems of doing without readily available, instant magical healing - but not if you flip on 'gritty' healing...

But the way to make even nerfed casters palatable to players is to make magic something rare, wondrous and even feared.
I agree, if from the reverse reasoning: in a low magic campaign, magic is rare, so both more wondrous and even feared, and a much greater advantage for those few who wield it, so it becomes even more important to 'nerf" PC casters.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I agree, if from the reverse reasoning: in a low magic campaign, magic is rare, so both more wondrous and even feared, and a much greater advantage for those few who wield it, so it becomes even more important to 'nerf" PC casters.
Still, it's better to restrict player access only to "weak" spellcaster class options. Than to nerf say Wizard and still expect players to pick it.

That is, the game already provides useful class options for a game where the best PC caster has only half or third spellcaster progression.

For instance, if you allow the Eldritch Knight, you have a perfectly reasonable build that just also happens to not be Elminster.

Or, you could say "You can pick spellcaster levels but only every other character level" to ensure no level 9 spells but still leave it up to the player to build a character she's comfortable with, no actual nerfing needed (outside of multiclassing caster and martial levels).

It's the idea to actually nerf wizards because you don't like high magic I don't like.

Playing up the wondrous and fearsome nature of magic does help alleviate that somewhat, but still: you move from a codified well-working familiar system to an arbitrary unknown state where the casters are dependent on DM fiat to gain any bang for their buck.

I just think it isn't worth all the effort. Neither from the DMs end, nor the player's.

I'd just say something like "no PC can have more than half progression regardless", leave everything as-is, and let the players sort it out to end up with a viable build they're happy with. At least they know what they're getting into - the parameters are stable. :)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Still, it's better to restrict player access only to "weak" spellcaster class options. Than to nerf say Wizard and still expect players to pick it.
Banning classes outright is easier than re-balancing all of the to fit the campaign, of course.

But any caster is at a distinct advantage in a world unprepared for their power, so bringing the raw power down across the board could be a good idea, especially if there's a fairly easy way to do it that can be broadly applied ... and if no one plays one, fine.

Playing up the wondrous and fearsome nature of magic does help alleviate that somewhat, but still: you move from a codified well-working familiar system to an arbitrary unknown state where the casters are dependent on DM fiat to gain any bang for their buck.
Everyone's already dependent on DM fiat, anyway.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Everyone's already dependent on DM fiat, anyway.
But with that reasoning you need no rules at all.

Of course there's a difference.

Having rules that mean you know Fireball does 8d6 damage beforehand is good. Or at least, is the reason we're all buying the same books and talking about the same game.

If the DM suddenly says you crap your pants and run away when you see the Fireball (a fear effect) that's way beyond what's generally meant by DM fiat.

And as an alternative, I'm suggesting you work within the framework of the rules instead.



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