D&D 5E Magic Item Math of 5e

[S'mon]

That's the point. I'm describing the typical campaign that R&D is talking about in DMG. You're not playing a typical campaign and telling me that you don't see the effect of magic items.

I'm not telling you that I don't see the effect of magic items. No idea where you got that from. What I am saying is that 5e works ok across a wide range of magic item distribution. It's very different from 3e that way.

 

[Stalker0]

looking at the numbers it really does not feel like a level 13 party should be challenging CR 19s.

Part of this is CR, part of this is simply how 5e is designed. 5e's bounded accuracy means higher tier monsters aren't THAT much tougher than your current fare. Further, monsters don't have quite the bevy of immunities and just autoscrews like they used to.

In 3.5, a 13th level cleric could cast blasphemy, and effectively any party that was 8th or lower was basically screwed. The 3.5 balor had 28 SR, so unless you were a decently high level caster a lot of your spells just would never land. There were more "you must be this tall to enter" type mechanics.

Now there is nothing wrong with 5e mechanics "innately", but the flavor doesn't' always match the mechanics. People have gotten used to high level creatures being invincible threats to the peasantry from previous editions, but in 5e a decent sized group of peasant archers can take out an adult dragon (I've done the math, and its not even that hard).

So not only are the CRs inaccurate, they don't even really mean the same thing anymore, especially at higher levels. At low levels, CR do a decent job of saying "be careful, if this Cr is higher than your party they could get royally messed up". However, once the party hits 5+ that tends to go away, and parties can often hit much higher than their paygrade would indicate. Compare that to 3e where if you are tossing CRed monsters 5+ above your party, they may have abilities that will literally just trash them outright.

 

[Blue]

This was a great thread in it's day, but a year after it was started in 2017 we got an official answer in Xanathar's (pg 135) about the breakdown of magicc items for the party based on tier of play.

That's what I use now.

 

[MwaO]

This was a great thread in it's day, but a year after it was started in 2017 we got an official answer in Xanathar's (pg 135) about the breakdown of magicc items for the party based on tier of play.

That's what I use now.

4 person party gets in Xanathar's 20 minor items each and 5 major items, 2 Uncommon, 1 Rare, 1 Very Rare, 1 Legendary...
i.e. they had the same numbers as this thread.

 

[Larnievc]

How many magic items should a typical 5e campaign have per PC?

DMG, bottom of page 133:
Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0-4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5-10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11-16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table

DMG, left column page 83:
Party Size. The preceding guidelines assume you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.
i.e. the average party size for purposes of everything in DMG is 4.

There are 9 Magic Item tables, A-I and we can examine them for permanent items that change resource allocation:
Magic Item Table A has a 2% chance of some minor items. 0-2nd level scrolls.
Magic Item Table B has a 16% chance of permanent items and about a 6% of a meaningful permanent item. 2nd-3rd level scrolls, consumables that can influence a combat such as Potion of Hill Giant Strength or Elemental gem. Goggles of Night stand out here as do a cloak, suit of armor, useful ring, etc...+1 ammo.
Magic Item Table C has a 8% and a 1% of a meaningful permanent item. 4th-5th level scrolls, potion of stone giant strength, Necklace of Fireballs, Periapt of Health. +2 ammo.
Magic Item Table D has a 5% and a 3% 6th-8th level scrolls, +3 ammo
Magic Item Table E has 0%. 8th-9th level scrolls, storm giant strength potions, arrow of slaying.
Magic Item Table F is where +1 items live. About a 3% chance of a relative dud/not typically permanent item. About a 23% chance of a magic weapon in effect. About 11% chance of an implement.
Magic Item Table G is where +2 items live. About a 14% chance of a relative dud/not typically permanent item. About 24% chance of at least a +1 magic weapon in effect. About 22% chance of an implement.
Magic Item Table H is where +3 items live. About a 12% chance of a relative dud/not typically permanent item. About 25% chance of at least a +2 magic weapon in effect. About 22% chance of an implement
Magic Item Table I is where the crazy stuff is. Though no artifacts or sentinent items. About 25% chance of a relative dud/not typically permanent item. 18% chance of an implement.

If, as an example, we have a 4% chance of 1-4 items, that's an average of 2.5 items 4% of the time or essentially an average of 1 item 10% of the time. So what does that mean given what the DMG says is a typical campaign of an average of 4 PCs...

Challenge 0-4: Has a 36% of no magic items, 24% of 3.5 items from Table A(84%), 15% of 2.5 items from Table B(37.5%), 10% of 2.5 items from Table C(25%), a 12% chance of 2.5 items from Table F(30%), and a 3% chance from Table G.
7 rolls = 5.88 items from Table A, 2.63 items from Table B, 1.75 items from Table C, 2.1 items from Table F and 0.21 items from Table G.

Challenge 5-10: Has an 28% of no magic items, 21% of 3.5 items from Table A(73.5%), 19% of 2.5 items from Table B(47.5%), 11% of 2.5 items from Table C(27.5%), 6% chance of 1 item from Table D(6%), a 14% chance of 2.5 items from Table F(35%), a 4% chance of 2.5 items from Table G(10%), and a 2% chance of Table H.
18 rolls = 13.23 items from Table A, 8.55 items from Table B, 4.95 items from Table C, 1.08 items from Table D, 6.3 items from Table F, 1.8 items from Table G, and 0.36 items from Table H.

Challenge 11-16: Has a 15% of no magic items, 14% chance of 2.5 items from Table A(35%), 14% chance of 3.5 items from Table B(49%), 21% chance of 3.5 items from Table C(73.5%), 16% chance of 2.5 items from Table D(40%), 8% chance of 1 item from Table E, an 8% chance of 1 item from Table F, an 8% chance of 2.5 items from Table G(20%), a 10% chance of 2.5 items from Table H(25%), and an 8% chance of 1 item from Table I.
12 rolls = 4.2 items from Table A, 5.88 items from Table B, 8.82 items from Table C, 4.8 items from Table D, 0.96 items from Table E, 0.96 items from Table F, 2.4 items from table G, 3 items from Table H, and 0.96 items from Table I.

Challenge 17-20: Has a 2% chance of no magic items, 12% chance of 4.5 items from Table C(54%), 32% of 3.5 items from Table D(112%), 22% of 3.5 items from Table E(77%), a 4% chance of 2.5 items from Table G(10%), an 8% chance of 2.5 items from Table H(20%), and a 20% chance of 2.5 items from Table I(50% - wow!).
8 rolls = 4.32 items from Table C, 8.96 items from Table D, 6.6 items from Table E, 0.8 items from Table G, 1.6 items from Table H, and 4 items from Table I

How Many Items Per Party?
4th = 5.88 items from Table A, 2.625 items from Table B, 1.75 items from Table C, 2.1 items from Table F and 0.21 items from Table G
10th = 19.11 items from Table A, 11.18 items from Table B, 6.7 items from Table C, 1.08 items from Table D , 8.4 items from Table F, 2.01 items from Table G, 0.36 items from Table H
16th = 23.31 items from Table A, 17.06 items from Table B, 15.52 items from Table C, 5.88 items from Table D, 0.96 items from Table E, 9.36 items from Table F, 4.41 items from Table G, 3.36 items from Table H, and 0.96 items from Table I
20th = 23.31 items from Table A, 17.06 items from Table B, 19.84 items from Table C, 14.84 items from Table D, 7.54 items from Table E, 9.36 items from Table F, 5.21 items from Table G, 4.96 items from Table H, and 4.96 items from Table I


Expected Magic Items per PC?
4th = 1.47 items from Table A, 0.66 items from Table B, 0.44 items from Table C, 0.53 items from Table F and 0.05 items from Table G. 2.53 consumables, 0.62 permanent(0.56 useful, 0.02 duds, 0.04 Table B-D)

10th = 4.78 items from Table A, 2.8 items from Table B, 1.68 items from Table C, 0.27 items from Table D, 2.1 items from Table F, 0.5 items from Table G, 0.09 items from Table H. 9.34 consumables, 2.88 permanent(2.55 useful, 0.14 duds, 0.19 Table B-D)

16th = 5.83 items from Table A, 4.27 items from Table B, 3.88 items from Table C, 1.47 items from Table D, 0.24 items from Table E, 2.34 items from Table F, 1.1 items from Table G, 0.84 items from Table H, and 0.24 items from Table I. 15.36 consumables, 4.85 permanent(4.13 useful, 0.39 duds, 0.33 Table B-D)

20th = 5.83 items from Table A, 4.27 items from Table B, 4.96 items from Table C, 3.71 items from Table D, 1.89 items from Table E, 2.34 items from Table F, 1.3 items from Table G, 0.99 items from Table H, and 0.99 items from Table I. 20.24 consumables, 6.04 permanent(5.01 useful, 0.61 duds, 0.42 Table B-D)

Useful: Items that are good items from the tables F-I. They potentially might be rendered into a dud with additional levels. The guy who finds a +1 Greatsword and then a +2 Greatsword in a party where he's the only Greatsword user. This does not include items from Table B-D
Duds: Usually represent either cursed items, items that might be very difficult to use, items that are better thought of as being consumables, or even items that aren't necessarily strictly better than non-magical items. +1 Scale Mail on Table I, I'm looking at you. The exact number of duds isn't really precise. Quick judgment calls.
Table B-D: Are items from the tables that are mostly consumable items. Usually rather weak, but could help out some builds such as Humans unable to see in the dark or a Paladin who rides a mount.

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Conclusions
PCs typically ought to be finding about 1 consumable each per level.
Note how close the number of useful items per level at 10th, 16th, and 20th per PC is 0.25. i.e. a party should end up finding about 1 useful item each level, with each PC getting 1 useful item every 4 levels.
Levels 1-4 are a little off the curve, representing how fast they ought to happen. Levels 5-10 play catchup.
The idea that magic items aren't taken into account by game mechanics ought to be a false one - there's no assumption that you will have a specific magic item, but a 20th level PC ought to have 5 useful magic items according to what R&D considers a typical campaign.
The amount of gold one gets is approximately 3K per hoard from 5-10, 30K from 11-16, and 300K from 17-20.

Crikey, that’s a lot of work. Good going.

I just give em what I think goes with their character and never get any more complicated than that.

Edit: crikey- just got the backlash from the thread necromancy.

 

[Blue]

4 person party gets in Xanathar's 20 minor items each and 5 major items, 2 Uncommon, 1 Rare, 1 Very Rare, 1 Legendary...
i.e. they had the same numbers as this thread.

I wouldn't expect it to be different, it's emergent from the magic item tables, just like this post rolled. Just having it handy in a book, and some direct breakout on minor vs. major vs. leaving the math here to do - just more convenient. This was a great thread, and I still have the link to it in my RPG bookmarks from how much I used it early on, but once the book was out that made it simple to look up.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's the point. I'm describing the typical campaign that R&D is talking about in DMG. You're not playing a typical campaign and telling me that you don't see the effect of magic items. Because a caster could use up her high level spells without fear of needing them later. In part because the average PC was somewhere around 10-30% more likely to be missed on an absolute set of numbers. And this on what 5e defines as being an "easy" fight.

Those are big things.

Garbage in garbage out is a statistics thing that accurately describes the 6-8 encounter expectations placed on the gm as well as everything tuned to the gm meeting that expectation. Bounded accuracy & the 6-8 encounter baseline expectation are responsible for a lot of 5e's big problems like pcs who trivially become immune to everything but a 20.

 

[MwaO]

Garbage in garbage out is a statistics thing that accurately describes the 6-8 encounter expectations placed on the gm as well as everything tuned to the gm meeting that expectation. Bounded accuracy & the 6-8 encounter baseline expectation are responsible for a lot of 5e's big problems like pcs who trivially become immune to everything but a 20.

PCs should not need a 20 to be hit and also, Bounded Accuracy is not a thing in 5e. 5e's math is more accurately 4e/2 math, just made fuzzy and obscure.

You have enough encounters to use up level 1 spell slots, PCs will not be casting Shield functionally at-will. If you don't have enough encounters per day to do that, that's not a functional level of 5e for your group.

 

[tetrasodium]

PCs should not need a 20 to be hit and also, Bounded Accuracy is not a thing in 5e. 5e's math is more accurately 4e/2 math, just made fuzzy and obscure.

You have enough encounters to use up level 1 spell slots, PCs will not be casting Shield functionally at-will. If you don't have enough encounters per day to do that, that's not a functional level of 5e for your group.

And there we have it...

Spoiler: Blame the GM

That came up pretty quickly.

Spoiler: 'enough' is an unreasonable standard

Even if the GM dies turn their game into some ultragrind grindfest in order to get "enough" the monsters are statted out to an expectation of no feats no magic items & bizarrely negative levels of charop being the average PC. Those paper tiger monsters are then given a handicap in order to ensure they can't really matter in the form of trivially available wackamole/yoyo healing on top of overly trivialized resource recovery the GM has little ability to throttle without nakedly clobbering it with blatant GM fiat.

 

[MwaO]

And there we have it...
"Blame the GM"

Me: "This is a document about what the system tells you to do."
People: "We don't do that and we broke a bound that's unfun."
Me: "That's an expected outcome."
You: "Oh, blame the DM why don't you???"

Should weird things happen if you don't follow system guidance? Sure. Is that acceptable to you? That's up to you. But someone telling me that they're ignoring system guidance and by doing such, PCs are unhittable…this is an expected outcome of 5e's design having a caster with enough spells to ignore resource limits given Shield exists. Am I blaming the DM for this? No. I'm simply pointing out that if Shield spell or magic items improving defenses makes PCs unhittable, you need to resolve it if it is unfun for you.

Also, the monsters are statted out with an expectation of magic items. The monster design table in DMG literally tells you that the value of resist vs non-magical weapons is extremely valuable to low CR creatures in effective hp and considered completely irrelevant to high CR monsters. Because high level PCs are expected to bypass the resist using magic weapons.

WotC did not do, for whatever reasons, a document spelling out that they threw out the Bounded Accuracy and No Expectation of Magic Items design options, but they did. Because they were unworkable as soon as people threw a fit over large damage bonuses per level for martial PCs in Next.