D&D 5E Magic Item Math of 5e

[S'mon]

You have enough encounters to use up level 1 spell slots, PCs will not be casting Shield functionally at-will.

Naw, they just start using level 2 spell slots. Not to mention that level 1 spell scrolls cost 25gp to craft per XGTE.

But it's not about the full casters; it's the Eldritch Knights who are built around Shield.

 

[James Gasik]

Are EK's really a problem? They have 1/3 the casting ability of a Wizard, I can't imagine they have that many Shields they can use per day.

 

[S'mon]

Are EK's really a problem? They have 1/3 the casting ability of a Wizard, I can't imagine they have that many Shields they can use per day.

My son's level 14 EK has

4 1st

3 2nd

2 3rd

That's at least 7 slots he's happy to use with Shield. And for big fights he'll use Blur. His base AC is 20 I think, so not super high for the level. I house rule that you can only use Shield scrolls as a Reaction if they're strapped to your wrists, so max two per fight, but at 25gp each to scribe he has as many as he wants.

 

[tetrasodium]

Are EK's really a problem? They have 1/3 the casting ability of a Wizard, I can't imagine they have that many Shields they can use per day.

The player in question operantly has an EK, but multiclassing is a thing. It's not just EK that drives a truck over the system with shield, it's

Spoiler: the shield spell itself

Video embed timestamp starts at relevant section

I linked the video because treantmonk does a great job of explaining the various ways it negatively tramples the math & player incentives even before adding magic items to the mix.

Naw, they just start using level 2 spell slots. Not to mention that level 1 spell scrolls cost 25gp to craft per XGTE.

But it's not about the full casters; it's the Eldritch Knights who are built around Shield.

/indeed, it's almost like there was a reason shield used to require a proactive cast and

Spoiler: This was a thing

Low level scrolls could be affordable to low level PCs with low level needs. Higher level PCs could stock up on a wide array of niche spell scrolls they might never use without being able to use the now trivially affordable scrolls to bury opponents with the resulting avalanche of spells if they found an outlying S tier low level spell +class/feat combo. Sure there were probably ways to use a scroll without provoking an AoO but the cost in terms of class levels & prerequisites probably did a nice job of balancing the gains

 

[James Gasik]

My son's level 14 EK has

4 1st

3 2nd

2 3rd

That's at least 7 slots he's happy to use with Shield. And for big fights he'll use Blur. His base AC is 20 I think, so not super high for the level. I house rule that you can only use Shield scrolls as a Reaction if they're strapped to your wrists, so max two per fight, but at 25gp each to scribe he has as many as he wants.

I'm not used to being allowed to scribe scrolls in games, that is a game changer, especially given the kind of money a higher level character can have laying around.

But yeah, I see your point, if they really want to focus on defense, I guess nothing stops them, even with more limited spell slots. When I started playing AL, everyone was talking about how Shield was the greatest spell ever; I've honestly never used it, because I learned to play the game when spell slots were a limited resource, and I'm a damn spell miser, lol.

 

[James Gasik]

The player in question operantly has an EK, but multiclassing is a thing. It's not just EK that drives a truck over the system with shield, it's

Spoiler: the shield spell itself

Video embed timestamp starts at relevant section

I linked the video because treantmonk does a great job of explaining the various ways it negatively tramples the math & player incentives even before adding magic items to the mix.



/indeed, it's almost like there was a reason shield used to require a proactive cast and

Spoiler: This was a thing

View attachment 277715

Low level scrolls could be affordable to low level PCs with low level needs. Higher level PCs could stock up on a wide array of niche spell scrolls they might never use without being able to use the now trivially affordable scrolls to bury opponents with the resulting avalanche of spells if they found an outlying S tier low level spell +class/feat combo. Sure there were probably ways to use a scroll without provoking an AoO but the cost in terms of class levels & prerequisites probably did a nice job of balancing the gains

So this might surprise some people, I don't know, but I've never taken Shield in 5e. I actually preferred the old Shield that I had to cast but would last the combat! The idea of using my reaction and a spell slot for something that can at best benefit me for one round has always been "eh, why?".

And I'm going to be honest, I haven't really felt like I've missed out. The melee characters I've played have been tough enough to survive, and the spellcasters I've played are savvy enough to not make good targets of themselves. It's just anecdotal evidence, I know, and maybe under different DM's I'd have seen the need by now.

 

[tetrasodium]

So this might surprise some people, I don't know, but I've never taken Shield in 5e. I actually preferred the old Shield that I had to cast but would last the combat! The idea of using my reaction and a spell slot for something that can at best benefit me for one round has always been "eh, why?".

And I'm going to be honest, I haven't really felt like I've missed out. The melee characters I've played have been tough enough to survive, and the spellcasters I've played are savvy enough to not make good targets of themselves. It's just anecdotal evidence, I know, and maybe under different DM's I'd have seen the need by now.

I've run a lot of AL games over the years & can give a bit of an answer on that bolded question of why. AL encourages players to view the game world through a lens shaded with total war.

Spoiler: Conan summarized that mindset well

At that point it doesn't matter if you "waste" a spell slot on that round when you can just refuse to advance without a rest to recover them. If there are consequences as a result of that rest it doesn't matter since next week will just be continuation of whatever the published adventure is with any consequences almost immediately becoming irrelevant. If something negative happens as a result.. great MOAR story. If the GM throws their hands up & declares rocks fall or walks away it means victory achieved & that gm was just a poor n00b gm who couldn't manage it.

 

[Ancalagon]

Garbage in garbage out is a statistics thing that accurately describes the 6-8 encounter expectations placed on the gm as well as everything tuned to the gm meeting that expectation. Bounded accuracy & the 6-8 encounter baseline expectation are responsible for a lot of 5e's big problems like pcs who trivially become immune to everything but a 20.

I completely agree with you on the complex and sometimes negative impact of the 6-8 encounter/day - it can create pacing problem and balance issues between classes.

however, I fail to see your point about PCs being immune to anything but a 20 (I'm guessing you mean from high AC?) being caused of bounded accuracy. Wouldn't this be worse in a non-bounded accuracy system? My AC in 3.5 could hit 35...

 

[tetrasodium]

I completely agree with you on the complex and sometimes negative impact of the 6-8 encounter/day - it can create pacing problem and balance issues between classes.

however, I fail to see your point about PCs being immune to anything but a 20 (I'm guessing you mean from high AC?) being caused of bounded accuracy. Wouldn't this be worse in a non-bounded accuracy system? My AC in 3.5 could hit 35...

If there was an expectation of magic items baked into the system math & a player engages in charop to somehow exceed that it's easy to compensate by scaling back on rewards that target that area. Instead the GM can give smaller rewards that mildly improve other areas (like weaknesses & power reserves).

If there was an expectation of magic item churn it's even easier because the charop will eventually fall behind the curve & other players can be given stuff to keep up with that optimized PC. 5e's design has monsters so undertuned that they simply are not capable of challenging players in a way that allows them to remain useful if the other players are given powerful gear to match the optimized build PC like used to happen if there was an over the top CoDzilla(or whatever) type build in the group.

 

[Ancalagon]

If there was an expectation of magic items baked into the system math & a player engages in charop to somehow exceed that it's easy to compensate by scaling back on rewards that target that area. Instead the GM can give smaller rewards that mildly improve other areas (like weaknesses & power reserves).

If there was an expectation of magic item churn it's even easier because the charop will eventually fall behind the curve & other players can be given stuff to keep up with that optimized PC. 5e's design has monsters so undertuned that they simply are not capable of challenging players in a way that allows them to remain useful if the other players are given powerful gear to match the optimized build PC like used to happen if there was an over the top CoDzilla(or whatever) type build in the group.

So... I'm not 100% sure I got your point. Let me paraphrase and let me know if I understood you.

You are saying that in 5e, the monsters are so weak that if you (a GM) give some magical items to help some PCs catch up with an OP PC one power gamer made, the group as a whole will be so powerful that monsters won't be able to challenge them (because one PC is OP and the others have potent magical items)?

I have a "rebuttal", but before I give it I wanted to be sure I understood your point.