Magic Item Talk

[AntiStateQuixote]

Most people on this boards probably wouldn't feel that way (as we're amongst the hardcore of the game), and terrifying is hyperbole, but a lot of new DM's probably felt constricted by the Compendium/DDI and also by Wish Lists (worst idea ever IMO).

I've played D&D since 1981. I consider myself "the hardcore of the game." I've played 4e steadily since release. I hate the idea of using nonstandard magic items in 4e because it is a pain in the ass to deal with compared to the character builder handling everything for free. Also, I try to use magic item wishlists for players because it's "expected" in 4e.

I'm looking forward to a return to old school magic in D&DNext.

 

[Ratskinner]

Generally, I like the attitude that the blog presents. No real "mechanics," if that applies here, so hard to say much.

I would like to say I'm happy to discern a trend away from "Magic is just like Science".

 

[kevtar]

We've been playing 1e AD&D for the past few months and the topic of item creation has just recently surfaced. The DMG provides some general guidelines for item creation and then warns against letting players create items, lol (at least until higher level). I want magic items to be specific with special powers and properties, however, I don't want to dissuade a player from wanting to create items.

For me, player creation should be a conversation between a player and the DM. Give the DM very basic guidelines for adjudicating magic item creation, not a formula for item creation as in 3e/4e, but perhaps a list of mystical components and some somewhat ambiguous instructions:

Capture the wail of a banshee in a crystal flask, combine it with the tears of an old hag and chill them for 24 hours in the snowy excess of a white dragon's breath. Then, process the chilled results through an alchemist's lab (an alembic and other items).​

I believe this maintains the mystical feeling of the item as well as the process for its creation, and encourages the DM and players to work together in contributing to their game world. The trick is creating a process for items that is not overly-burdensome or onerous for players, but that's what DMG "guidelines" are for! The guidelines could help DMs set item creation processes that are appropriate to the "level" of the item (as in quality/power/effect of the item and not necessarily level as in 4e terms, or player terms), the process necessary to complete the ritual, and the resources expended by the party. Again, these would be guidelines, that would allow some variability.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I moved to rolling for random magic items in the 2e Encyclopedia Magica books and futzing them for 4e in my 4e games.

It is incredibly more fun. There's a lot more variety and a lot more interesting diversions.

As sort of a PS, I'd prefer magic items to be pure reward. If items are expected and the game is balanced for them, that creates a need to give them out, which creates an expectation of their acquisition (and in certain ways, such as the Big Six).

Magic items should not be expected, so there is no need to give any specific items out, so the game shouldn't assume them in balance.

 

[Stormonu]

Lists (worst idea ever IMO).

Nah, wish lists themselves aren't the problem - I've had players with wish lists since at least 1E.

It was the expectation that these things would just "randomly" pop up in a hoard without specifically questing for them that caused the real problems.

"I want a Holy Avenger" should still be a viable thing for players to request. But the DM ought to be able to counter with, "how do you intend to find one or make one?", or say "Tales speak of such a blade lying in the tomb of Voryn, slayer of demon. Supposedly, the tomb is trap-laden and guarded by Voryn's ghost, who will only relinquish the sword to a worthy succcessor. Do you think you're the one?"

 

[Rhenny]

Like many, I'm for making magic items unique and magical, and for limiting PC acquisition so that items (other than consumables) seem special.

In older D&D games I've played and DMd, if my character (or my players) had 2 or 3 items even at level 12 or 13, that was enough. The items of course were unique and did influence the way we played (like others have mentioned).

In more recent versions, it seemed like one had to fill all of his or her item slots (like a video game) or he or she was underpowered.

I'm glad that D&D5e will treat magic as more substantial and unique...bringing back the wonder.

I would appreciate having a number of unique items pre-made and ready to use, but there should also be guidance for DMs to create their own unique items that fit with PCs and the story within their own campaigns. Better yet, don't make it complicated. Let DMs create what they like or need. Let DMs control balance, don't dictate to balance.

If I find that a weapon or item becomes too powerful or tips the balance and the players are not enjoying the game for that reason, I can certainly find ways to dispose of the offending items. Acquiring a powerful magic item reminds me of this quote..."It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all." If a player gets a chance to wield something unique, powerful and special, it can transform him or her, even if the item is lost (or sacrificed for a greater good).

 

[Incenjucar]

The character builder certainly makes homebrewing items harder, but you can manage - there are plenty of them in my game, and they're usually centerpieces in the story as well.

Personally, in 4E, I just use inherent bonuses, free universal expertise, and made all magic items auto-level to match whoever wields it.

Having done so, I can now do fun things like drop a story nugget about a Frost Brand that's kept by Frost Giants, long before they're brave enough to do anything about it, and they can come back for it later when they feel they're up to the challenge, and it will still be worthwhile.

Eliminate the need for items, and you can use them better.

 

[fuindordm]

Most of the time, I come down firmly on the side of "old school" in these discussions.

However, IMO clear rules for magic item creation by players were one of the best things about 3E. They solved a problem that had been bugging me for years:

1st and 2nd edition modules had tons of magic items in the treasure hordes. Potions, scrolls, and +1/+2 arms and armor were especially abundant, but let's face it--the most common play style was very generous with minor items.

And yet, the rules for item creation implied that even making a potion was terribly difficult, requiring a high-level wizard or cleric. IIRC, in 1st edition the thresholds were 7th level for potions, 9th level for scrolls, 11th level for charged items (with the Enchant an Item spell), and 15th level for anything else (with the Permanency spell). And in the AD&D DMG, even something like a healing potion required a fragment of a saint's relic!

So there was always a severe disconnect between the abundance of magic in the world and the implied setting.

When 3E came along, and players could manufacture their own healing potions for the cost of a feat and a bit of gold, I was thrilled. I even liked the flavor of paying XP to power items, which many people hate. I also liked that they gave Scribe Scroll to wizards for free, reinforcing their scholarly bias.

Furthermore, I never hesitated as a DM to create magic items that broke the rules. Those rules were for players, mainly. If I have a cool idea, I just make the item; there's no need to price it. And if they players want to make a duplicate, I'll just tell them they can't. The techniques for that particular item have been lost in the mists of time, or are a closely held secret of NPC X. Simple!

Now, I realize that the 3E system has some problems. Wands in particular have too many charges, and are probably too cheap. Staffs are ridiculously expensive, compared to an equivalent number of scrolls. And worst of all is the assumption of equivalency between spells; a wand of Fly is enormously more useful than a wand of Clairvoyance, for reasons already mentioned by the designers. Monte Cook addressed this in Arcana Unearthed by placing magic item cost multipliers, and sometimes prohibitions, directly in the spell descriptions.

But to sum up, on the whole I want my players to be able to invest in magic item creation, at the very least for simple expendable items like potions and scrolls, and preferably for simple permanent items as well. I don't think any rules for DM item creation are needed, except a paragraph reinforcing "make what sounds cool" and some guidelines for what kinds of items might cause problems for your campaign down the line. I think rules for some PC item creation are very useful, and improve the coherence of the game world.

 

[billd91]

This may be my favorite blog post on the topic of Next so far. I understand why the 3e team added magic item creation as easily as they did. They thought they were meeting a significant demand, and I think they were correct in that assessment. Trouble was, from the perspective of use players, sometimes you do get what what you want only to find it's not really what you want. Pandora's box, indeed.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The problem with magic items in the DDI is misplaced priorities on how flexible it all needs to be. To wit, le'ts suppose instead of the current 4E setup, you have a DDI that works like this:

• You've got a character builder. When it comes to things like spells, equipment, etc. (things outside the character itself), you can pick such things, but the stats are not inherently calculated. Instead, you get a line in the proper place with blanks to put in the appropriate stats. For example, if your fighter uses a longsword, you don't pick a particular mundane or magic longsword--you just say longsword.
• Then you've also got an adventure builder. No need to go into details for this post, but you can guess.
• Then you've got a separate app/section for "magic item manager", "monster manager", "spell manager", etc. You put in the main stats for the respective things, with some room for some free text.

You can print from all of these. This means that right up front, you can got into the "magic item manager" and make a list of equipment (canned or custom), save it, and print it. Then when the party find something, you hand them the print--or if you don't want them to identify everything right away, some kind of code that links to it, while you keep it. The character leveling doesn't change that relationship.

Now, later, once all that is working, then go back and enhance it to make it easier to relate. Let the DM link into the various managers from the "adventure builder" so that he can embed the information in one document if he wants. Let the character builder include a second line under equipment specifying which feats, abilities, etc provide the raw numbers that should go into those blank lines. But keep the blank lines, and expect people to adjust as magic items change.

You only need to reprint the character sheet (which doesn't include a huge list of spells or equipment as that is separate) when you level--and can probably get away without doing that on most levels. After a few levels, the sheet gets all scratched up and needs reprinting anyway.

It's the classic example of software trying to "do everything for you" and thus getting in the way, when it could do "a lot for you" and leave a tiny bit for you to do yourself, and thus be far more flexible and useful. Not incidently, this would also cause using the software to teach the game instead of obscuring it.