D&D 5E Making Chase Rules... that actually do what they're supposed to!

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION]: Have you, by any chance, had a look at the alternate chase rules in the AL module "Cloaks and Shadows"? I adapted them for a chase scene where the objective was to catch a golden-fleeced ram. I found them to be a significant improvement over the rules in the DMG.

That being said, since you've already put a lot of work into your own rules, you may not want to just abandon them. Still, I'd say take a look anyway. You might find something of use there.

I'm only familiar with those rules since you pointed them out last year in another thread. My impressions was, beyond abstracting distance/gap, they weren't substantively different than the DMG rules.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I've been thinking about my experience with 5th edition DMG's chase rules, and I think I've put my finger on why they're not quite satisfying.

When I run a chase, I want it to feel fast-paced, cinematic, and dynamic both to the players and to myself. This is nicely articulated at the DnD Hackers Guild blog. When I run chases using the 5e DMG rules, they are at best moderately-paced, only moderately-dynamic, and any cinematic flair comes from being experienced gamers and NOT the rules. They're not terrible, but they're not great.

I'll refer to this Arwen vs. Nazgul chase scene as a simple point of reference for my design goals:

[video=youtube;e9K7fueW4Bk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9K7fueW4Bk[/video]

[SBLOCK=Observations on the chase scene]

• The chase can be roughly divided into five 00:30 second segments, though most of the actual chase is about 2:00 minutes long. The last 00:30 seconds or so are the resolution of the end of the chase with the river spirits wiping out the Nazgul.
• For the first 30 seconds (a transition from hills to woodland) there's no clear line of sight between Arwen and the Nazgul. At best there is something like 3/4 cover. This emphasizes the idea that in D&D chases you don't want a clear line of sight too early on, both to preserve some of the mystique of the chase and also to limit casters from unloading hold person type magic too early.
• Arwen is proactive, dodging a tree branch hazard, pushing her horse through a straightaway, and weaving through trees.
• There are environmental changes happening, from hills to dense woodland to an open straightaway, to the river.
• The riverbank acts as a safe destination, so once Arwen reaches that she and Frodo are effectively safe.

[/SBLOCK]

THEORY

Fast-paced: I don't want to design chase complications tables for each chase environment...just like I don't want to create a new monster stat block for every combat I run. Likewise, I don't want to add additional unnecessary things to track (e.g. # of Dashes used, like in the DMG chase rules). I also don't want a glut of rules that might slow down play. The DMG chase rules have been adequate in this regard, but they definitely could use some speeding up. I'm thinking side-initiative & mostly tracking a single gap between pursuer/prey (rather than a bunch of individual creature locations) will be swifter.

Cinematic: If you watch the Arwen vs. Nazgul chase, it becomes clear that there's several moments of close conflict — a wraith reaches for Frodo, a rider tries to box Arwen in, etc. However, the DMG chase rules are set up on more of a linear track — to reach melee range you need to first reduce the gap between prey/pursuer to 0, and then you switch to combat mode. I'm thinking of chase events which provide moments of close conflict, drawing pursuer/prey into brief melee before terrain and circumstance drive them back into more clearly articulated pursuit and evasion roles

Dynamic: I want a chase to throw curveballs for both myself and the players. And I especially want the players to have meaningful decisions to make that influence the outcome of the chase. While the DMG chase rules do a decent job of throwing environmental curveballs/complications, they don't provide much in the way of meaningful decisions. After all, risking exhaustion to "excessively" Dash (level one: disadvantage to all checks, level two: half speed) is almost never worth it in a chase where ability checks and speed are king. Instead, I'm thinking of borrowing the James Bond 007 RPG chase Difficulty bidding process, and supplementing it with a few chase actions to take on lesser or greater risk.

So, that's my theoretical framework.

PRACTICE
How does this look in practice? I've attached this as a pretty PDF (from an upcoming adventure I'm writing) which I find easier to read, but here is my basic implementation:

• The DM determines the starting gap and other conditions of the chase.
• The chase should last between 3 to 6 rounds, which may be anywhere from a normal combat round to 20 minutes in length. It depends on the scale of the chase.
• “Initiative” is side-based and determined by bidding on Difficulty of the “chase check.”
• At the start of each turn, each side makes a special group ability check (a “chase check”) according to the nature of the chase.
• One creature representing each side of the chase then rolls 1d12 on the Chase Events table, which may affect just that creature, all creatures on its side, or all creatures in the chase depending on the results. On the players’ side, a different PC should handle this roll each round.
• Creatures in the chase may opt to take actions or try unusual strategies, which may change their individual position.
• This process repeats each round until the chase’s end conditions are met, typically: finishing all rounds of the chase, the pursuers reduce the gap to 0, or the prey doubles the starting gap.

Starting the Chase
Determine who is on which side of the chase. Generally, creatures are clumped together on their side, but a creature whose speed is different from others on its side by 10 or more, certain complications, and outlandish strategies may involve a creature being tracked separate from the rest of its side.
A good starting gap is twice the speed of most creatures in the chase (e.g. a mounted chase might start with pursuers and prey 120 ft. apart).
The DM determines other conditions of the chase, like visibility, cover, and line of sight. Especially if there are spellcasters with crippling spells like hold person or sleep, consider placing terrain that limits line of sight.
The DM determines how long the chase lasts. A good length is one round per PC, though the DM can also use a more simulationist model or other end game scenarios (see “Ending the Chase”).

Chase Checks
Each round, both sides makes a chase check, a group ability check that does not require creatures on the same side to use the same ability or skill. For example, during a foot chase through the woods, one creature might make a Strength (Athletics) check, while another makes a Wisdom (Survival) check to quickly navigate the path of least resistance. Which checks are permissible are left to the DM, though this is a great occasion to say “yes” to the players.
The Difficulty of this check begins at a value determined by the DM (e.g. 12), and is then increased via a bidding process by both sides. The side to bid the highest Difficulty chooses whether to go first or last.
If at least half the group succeeds, then that side may widen or close the gap by a number of feet equal to d10 per 10 feet of movement (rounding up). For example, a speed 25 halfling would 3d10 feet. Thus, it is possible for both pursuers and prey to succeed the chase check, causing the gap to widen and close on the same round.

Ending the Chase
In the case of a chase to a safe haven of some kind, the chase ends when either the pursuers reduce the gap to 0, or the prey reach the safe haven by keeping the gap above 0 for the entire chase.
In the case of a race to a finish line, the race ends after the last round. However, who is pursuer and who is prey may change as the chasers jockey for the lead position.
In the case of a chase with no specific end point, instead of a set number of rounds, the chase ends when either the pursuers reduce the gap to 0, or the prey increases the gap to twice what it started at. Alternately, the chase might end if the prey deceive or hide from the pursuers.
Depending on how a chase ends, it could represent the prey being driven into a dead-end.

Actions During a Chase
During a chase, most creatures focus entirely on evasion or pursuit. However, a creature moving independently (i.e. not on the same horse or vehicle as another) may forgo taking the Dash action, in which case its position in the chase drops by an amount equal to its speed (or the speed of its mount). The creature is then free to take any action it pleases, such as making a ranged attack if it has line of sight.

Getting a Clear Shot
In situations where line of sight is in doubt, a Wisdom (Perception) check may be called for to determine whether a creature can get enough sustained line of sight to get a clear shot. This check should begin very hard (DC 25) or nearly impossible (DC 30), but each round the chase progresses the DC shoulder lower by 5, representing creatures looking for an opening to take a shot or cast a spell.

Additionally, there are a few special actions unique to chases: Creating a Complication, Lookout, Reckless Sprint.

Creating a Complication
Creatures in a chase may be able to create a hazard or obstacle to afflict the opposite side as an action. The DM should adjudicate such situations on a case-by-case basis.

Lookout
During a chase, creatures are assumed to be moving at a fast travel pace (roughly 400 feet per minute; -5 passive Perception). Additionally, in most chase scenarios opportunity attacks are not possible due to the focus required.
By taking the lookout action, the creature does not suffer this penalty to passive Perception and may take opportunity attacks as normal. In addition, the DM should provide forewarning of the next upcoming complication or chase event.

Reckless Sprint
Pushing itself (or its mount or vehicle) to the limit, the creature’s gap closes or widens twice what it otherwise would that round. However, it suffers disadvantage on any ability checks to navigate chase events. At the end of the round, the creature must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or accrue a level of exhaustion.

Chase Events (d12)
The following chase events are meant to be generic enough that the DM can adapt them to any given terrain, improvising on the fly. Of course, if the DM prefers, he or she can prepare each category of event for a given terrain/scenario in advance...but there's nothing requiring this. These chase events are inspired by watching cinematic chases (probably too many Jason Statham movies), the Top Secret RPG chase rules, several blogs, and the 5e DMG chase complications.

1 Convoluted Terrain. Neither side has line of sight to the other this round, and the prey may attempt a group Dexterity (Stealth) check to hide from the pursuers, who make a group Wisdom (Perception) check. If the prey succeed, the chase ends as they can’t be found. If the pursuers succeed, reduce the gap to equal to the average speed of the chasers.
2 Crowd/Herd. A group of creatures impedes the progress of that side. One or more characters on that side may attempt to influence the group to assist them (DM discretion), or clear a path, on a DC 13 check. On a failed check, the opposing side rolls to close or widen the gap.
3 Difficult Terrain. Creatures (determined by the DM’s judgment) face difficult terrain, moving at half speed unless they have a means to circumvent or avoid the difficult terrain. The difficult terrain lasts the entire round.
4 Dilemma. The creature who rolled this result, and possibly others on its side, faces a dilemma: if they don’t alter course to a harder path, something bad happens (e.g. innocents hurt, mounts or vehicles damaged, supplies lost, they’re spotted by other enemies). This harder path might increase the DC of all checks by 2, require intermittent Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks to avoid falling, prevent line of sight, or change the chase’s length.
5 Hazard. Some kind of hazard suiting the terrain requires all creatures on both sides to make a saving throw determined by the DM. A result of less than 10 results in “dangerous” damage, a result of 10-14 results in “setback” damage, and a result of 15 or higher indicates no damage. Refer to the Damage Severity and Level table in the DMG pg. 249.
6 Obstacle. A physical obstacle suiting the terrain bars passage. Each creature on that side must make a DC 13 Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) group check to surmount the obstacle. If the group check fails, the opposing side rolls to close or widen the gap.
7 Opportunity. The creature who rolled this result can take an extra action that turn, though the DM should require the decision on how to use the action be made quickly. If the action is used to make a ranged attack, consider lowering the DC of the Wisdom (Perception) check required to get a clear shot.
8 Paths Converge. The creature who rolled this result and one creature on the opposing side of the DM’s choice cross paths momentarily, coming into melee range. They can each make an attack against one another, before they are forced to resume their former gap by circumstance and terrain.
9 Risky Shortcut. A shortcut presents itself to the creature that rolled this result. It can pursue the shortcut alone or convince its side to follow. The creature makes a DC 13 ability check of the DM’s choice to avoid whatever risk is associated with the shortcut. If the creature succeeds, it rolls twice to widen or close the gap. If it fails, however, the creature drops out of the chase.
10 Separated. The creature who rolled this result is somehow separated from the rest of its side. If prey, it begins tracking its gap from any pursuers breaking off to pursue it separately from the main chase. It must make a DC 10 Wisdom check to reunite with the rest of its side next round, otherwise it is on its own for the rest of the chase. If a pursuer, it must make a DC 10 Wisdom check or become lost and drop out of the chase.
11 Straightaway. Each creature in the chase can opt to push itself, closing or widening the gap by an amount equal to its speed. A creature pushing itself must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw; on a failure it accures a level of exhaustion. Additionally, both sides have unobstructed line of sight to one another this round.
12 Twist. The basic conditions of the chase change. This may include adding creatures on either side (or perhaps adding a third side), swapping who is pursuer and prey, altering the end conditions of the chase, changing what will happen when the chase ends, or radically changing the environment, visibility, cover or line of sight.

I read this thread title and thought - I've got some rules for that! And you had already found them! LOL. Glad someone at least has seen that chase post for DnD hackers guild.

I think your variant rules would work well. I especially like your cross paths, convoluted terrain and twist options - I might steal those if you dont mind, haha!

I suspect the reckless sprint option might be a bit strong, but I guess it depends on starting distances, and there is a lot of variability in the chase checks and events. I am not sure if the incentive to go first in initiative is worth DC bidding war? I am not familiar with that kind of bidding mechanic.

Anecdotally, I've run I think six of these chases using these kinds of rules, using the improvised table and so on, and they've been good fun. I've had at least one end in a capture, and the others were escapes I think. Once the players understood the chase was a little minigame of it's own, standing apart from the usual combat rules, they were on board.

I just ran the Primeval Thule Cavern of Golden Tears adventure, with the beastman chase at the start, about 3 weeks ago. It was easily adapted chase wise and worked great with a bit of tribal drum music on roll20! The beastmen ended up caught in poisonous scrub, fighting each other, and the adventurers escaped (they opened the gap sufficiently to escape).

Incidentally, we've found easily improvised chases work excellent with a formal "party wide retreat" rule.

 

[Sunseeker]

For a start I would simply change the rule on running. Instead of a basic doubling of speed, on Dash, I'd make base speed plus a random die roll. Maybe a d6 or d8. You could increase the die for running feats and you could make advantage and disadvantage rules for circumstances occurring during a chase.

Rough Examples:

Dash Action

When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for your current turn. The increase equals the number rolled on your Agility Die plus your Dexterity Modifier.

Create Obstacle

You create an obstacle to baffle a pursuer. You must roll an ability check versus a DC set by the DM. Depending on the nature of the obstacle the purser may need make an Ability Save to negotiate the obstacle or fall prone, or may simply take disadvantage on their Agility Die.

Risky Dash

You Dash over difficult terrain. You may Dash with advantage but must make an Ability Save or either fall prone or lose any speed increase granted by the Dash Action.

Sprinter Feat

Your Agility Die is increased from a d6 to a d8.


Just a few ideas.

You could tie this into HD, that way people "wear out" after a certain amount of time, just like when real people run for a long time, they get worn out. Though, to achieve a more cinematic feel, I'd suggest using something akin to the new Star Wars success/failure dice. Make running abstract because it's less important about how far you actually run, than it is about how well you run. Plus, taking out the numbers would make it feel less like a crunchy combat.

 

[Syntallah]

You could tie this into HD, that way people "wear out" after a certain amount of time, just like when real people run for a long time, they get worn out. Though, to achieve a more cinematic feel, I'd suggest using something akin to the new Star Wars success/failure dice. Make running abstract because it's less important about how far you actually run, than it is about how well you run. Plus, taking out the numbers would make it feel less like a crunchy combat.

Can you elaborate on the "Star Wars success/failure dice"?

 

[pdzoch]

That would be true if the primary purpose of all the complications (chase events) were to widen/close the gap between pursuers and prey.

However, you'll see that's not the case.

I choose the name "chase events" because I specifically wanted to clue the reader into the fact that these are not just obstacles to slow you down. Rather, they're ALL the things that happen in a cinematic chase.

Close brushes between pursuer and prey that allow for limited conflict.
Changing conditions of the chase.
Innocent bystanders put in danger.
A window of opportunity to take a shot.

And so on.

Instead of thinking of Chase Events as complications like the DMG or Pathfinder, think of them as a Chase Random Encounter Table with more than just monsters.

The group "chase check" is the primary determinant of how much the gap widens/closes. This is where the PCs proactively decide "how crazy are we going to get? how much are we going to risk?"

A FEW of the results on the chase events table can then further modify this, but when those obstacles/complications come up, the PCs don't get to decide how much risk they're taking. The complication decides that. The PCs react.

Love the process. Regarding the cinematic aspect. These events in cinema or a good novel have purpose, which is to tell details about the chaser, the chased, and the environment. Its not really random, but deliberate. I usually have a plotted path for my villain on the run (and a general expectation where I think the characters will be going if chased), so the challenges (cinematic events) are placed with purpose. That wall the villain just vaulted over -- it separates the wealthy from the poor parts of town (was the villain hired by someone wealthy or wealthy himself if heading to the wealthy side, or was the villain a poor person if heading to the poor side). That brush with the local watch or goon squad -- it indicates who might be the enforcers of law (and whose law) in the section of town. etc.

 

[Sunseeker]

Can you elaborate on the "Star Wars success/failure dice"?

Each symbol on the die represents a degree of success. When you roll a handful of them, you count up how many successes you have and how many failures and how many "super successes" and how many "terrible failures" you have to determine a more cinematic outcome than a statistical one.

 

[Quickleaf]

I read this thread title and thought - I've got some rules for that! And you had already found them! LOL. Glad someone at least has seen that chase post for DnD hackers guild.

I think your variant rules would work well. I especially like your cross paths, convoluted terrain and twist options - I might steal those if you dont mind, haha!

Absolutely! Your work inspired my own, after all Great blog, btw, I'll be following.

I suspect the reckless sprint option might be a bit strong, but I guess it depends on starting distances, and there is a lot of variability in the chase checks and events.
Reckless Sprint may be strong, yeah, I need to playtest it. The built-in variability might make it a non-issue.

I am not sure if the incentive to go first in initiative is worth DC bidding war? I am not familiar with that kind of bidding mechanic.

It's from the James Bond 007 RPG. Basically, if you're a pursuer, you might want the prey to go first so you can get a feel for what obstacles lie ahead, or if you actually think you can reach the prey on a sprint you might want to go first. As prey, you probably want to go first to minimize chances of the pursuers firing at you or making a sudden sprint, though you miiight prefer the pursuer go first if you're trying to set up a decoy, confuse them, or see how they'll respond.

Anecdotally, I've run I think six of these chases using these kinds of rules, using the improvised table and so on, and they've been good fun. I've had at least one end in a capture, and the others were escapes I think. Once the players understood the chase was a little minigame of it's own, standing apart from the usual combat rules, they were on board.

Awesome. Great point about clarifying chase rules =/= combat rules.

Love the process. Regarding the cinematic aspect. These events in cinema or a good novel have purpose, which is to tell details about the chaser, the chased, and the environment. Its not really random, but deliberate. I usually have a plotted path for my villain on the run (and a general expectation where I think the characters will be going if chased), so the challenges (cinematic events) are placed with purpose. That wall the villain just vaulted over -- it separates the wealthy from the poor parts of town (was the villain hired by someone wealthy or wealthy himself if heading to the wealthy side, or was the villain a poor person if heading to the poor side). That brush with the local watch or goon squad -- it indicates who might be the enforcers of law (and whose law) in the section of town. etc.

Totally. I love how you put this, and I was thinking along the same lines.

I made the chase events table deliberately generic. In actual play, however, the DM would adapt them to the specific scenario on the fly. For example, say the PCs are fleeing on horse-drawn sleighs from pursuing wolves. If the PCs roll "paths converge", then maybe there's a downhill slope which the sleigh enters a dangerous slide down, and while sliding one or more of the wolves sliding down the slope come alongside the sleigh. A brief couple of attacks are exchanged before the sleigh takes the lead again, careening onto flat snow at the base of the slope...and the chase goes on!

 

[Quickleaf]

You could tie this into HD, that way people "wear out" after a certain amount of time, just like when real people run for a long time, they get worn out. Though, to achieve a more cinematic feel, I'd suggest using something akin to the new Star Wars success/failure dice. Make running abstract because it's less important about how far you actually run, than it is about how well you run. Plus, taking out the numbers would make it feel less like a crunchy combat.

If HD are used to represent "tired and worn out" in one case, while exhaustion is used to represent it in another, there's some dissonance there.

No dispute that the abstract nature of hit points and HD could work, but I think it may work at cross-purposes to making a fun, dynamic, cinematic chase.

Very few cinematic chases end with the hero or villain so exhausted they can't run anymore. I mean, Hidalgo comes to mind, but I would say the scope of that is more of an adventure or campaign than a chase, in D&D terms. And there's a reason for that. Getting worn down and exhausted isn't that fun.

It definitely has a place in D&D rules, but look at the main things that impose exhaustion: starvation, dehydration, exposure, forced march. These are long-term dangers spanning 1-24+ hours. A chase could certainly last that long, but most are significantly shorter.

Plus, there's dissonance in the D&D chase rules. During a chase you can Dash 3 + your Constitution modifier number of times before risking exhaustion. But RAW, chase reality is different than combat reality, where you can Dash as much as you like without risking exhaustion. Sure, it would be a crazy big battlefield, and probably a crazy long combat, if a PC wanted to Dash more than once or twice, but why should the rules be different?

Finally, there's the question of simulating reality... Speed 30 = 300 feet per minute = 3 mph = human walking speed. Dashing allows you to move a total speed of 60 = 600 feet per minute = 6 mph. This is crazy slow. Take, for example, a great runner who does a 4 minute mile — he or she is moving at around 15 mph. And that's not even looking at record holders. My interpretation of the D&D Dash rules is that they're emphasizing human endurance and traveling in the long-term with backpacks and stuff... they're not meant to represent all-out sprinting that leaves you breathless.

That's where I was coming from with the Risky Sprint chase maneuver (and frankly maybe it should just be a general Action option)... pushing yourself to move somewhere in the 12-18 mph range, which I agree should risk some kind of "worn out" state. Whether that's exhaustion, HD loss, or whatever.

 

[Sunseeker]

If HD are used to represent "tired and worn out" in one case, while exhaustion is used to represent it in another, there's some dissonance there.

No dispute that the abstract nature of hit points and HD could work, but I think it may work at cross-purposes to making a fun, dynamic, cinematic chase.

Very few cinematic chases end with the hero or villain so exhausted they can't run anymore. I mean, Hidalgo comes to mind, but I would say the scope of that is more of an adventure or campaign than a chase, in D&D terms. And there's a reason for that. Getting worn down and exhausted isn't that fun.

It definitely has a place in D&D rules, but look at the main things that impose exhaustion: starvation, dehydration, exposure, forced march. These are long-term dangers spanning 1-24+ hours. A chase could certainly last that long, but most are significantly shorter.

Plus, there's dissonance in the D&D chase rules. During a chase you can Dash 3 + your Constitution modifier number of times before risking exhaustion. But RAW, chase reality is different than combat reality, where you can Dash as much as you like without risking exhaustion. Sure, it would be a crazy big battlefield, and probably a crazy long combat, if a PC wanted to Dash more than once or twice, but why should the rules be different?

Finally, there's the question of simulating reality... Speed 30 = 300 feet per minute = 3 mph = human walking speed. Dashing allows you to move a total speed of 60 = 600 feet per minute = 6 mph. This is crazy slow. Take, for example, a great runner who does a 4 minute mile — he or she is moving at around 15 mph. And that's not even looking at record holders. My interpretation of the D&D Dash rules is that they're emphasizing human endurance and traveling in the long-term with backpacks and stuff... they're not meant to represent all-out sprinting that leaves you breathless.

That's where I was coming from with the Risky Sprint chase maneuver (and frankly maybe it should just be a general Action option)... pushing yourself to move somewhere in the 12-18 mph range, which I agree should risk some kind of "worn out" state. Whether that's exhaustion, HD loss, or whatever.

Let me put my response generally and why I offered the option I did:

These things you say here, the OP? WAY overthinking things. Implementing and tracking these rules is going to be cumbersome, tedious and mostly annoying. You'll run one chase and then nobody is ever going to want to chase, or be chased ever again. I got worn out just reading them.

There's no point in contemplating running at 12-18MPH because like the Sharpshooer feat, you're only going to get this over flat, open ground. Running around in a city? You're going to be making corners, jumping barrels, dodging traffic and occasionally stopping to hide. Cinematic chases aren't about speed, they're about style, you didn't win because you were fast, you won because you were clever.

 

[Syntallah]

Each symbol on the die represents a degree of success. When you roll a handful of them, you count up how many successes you have and how many failures and how many "super successes" and how many "terrible failures" you have to determine a more cinematic outcome than a statistical one.

Interesting, thanks!