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D&D 5E Martial Characters vs Real World Athletes

Andor

First Post
I'm with you up until the last paragraph. Just as there are in-game mechanics that differentiate spells from other abilities (mundane or supernatural, I'd point out), there are mechanical differences between casting fireball and throwing a wagon. First off, throwing a wagon required a wagon instead of bat guano. Second, it doesn't take spell slots. Third, all that anti-magic stuff you mentioned. But the EK does work as a starting point - the subclass I made uses it as a touchstone for the appropriate power level of daily fighter subclass abilities.

Oh absolutely. The refluff requires some mechanical finessing at the level of components and damage types, etc. But that's small potatoes once one has passed the conceptual hurdle.

I really like your subclass btw, I think I xp'd you for it.
 

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ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
Oh absolutely. The refluff requires some mechanical finessing at the level of components and damage types, etc. But that's small potatoes once one has passed the conceptual hurdle.

I really like your subclass btw, I think I xp'd you for it.

Thanks! I think one of the so-far underappreciated aspects of this edition is that it's pretty easy to make a balanced custom class or subclass compared to 3e. I expect we'll see lots of fun homemade stuff for 5e.
 
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pemerton

Legend
There are systems which use such narrative fiat as the basis of magic/non-magic balance. And such abilities can easily coexist with powerful magic and epic skill, and it's already there in the form of some rogue class features.
The playtest version of the fighter's Indomitable ability (advantage on all saves vs. magic) was a great example of this. Unfortunately, the final version is a pale reflection of this.
I agree with both of these points. Abilities like Ace in the Hole, and Indomitable, that can establish a minimum mechanical floor when engaging with the ordinary action resolution mechanics, are one way of trying to balance mundane and magical PCs.

And the nerfing of Indomitable seems a pity to me.

you are perfectly capable of refluffing any ability as anything else. You are fully aware that you could make your fighter an Eldritch Knight at the rules level, but refluff all his abilities as sheer Mythic martial might at the fiction level. Fireball is throwing a wagon, or barrel of flaming oil one handed. Passwall is punching through a castles Barbican in a single blow. Given the ability to refluff, what more do you need?
Once again I'm in agreement with [MENTION=54843]ZombieRoboNinja[/MENTION].

"Refluffing" which is really rewriting abilities, in the context of a game which has adopted, at least to a substantial degree, the conceit that limited-use slot-based abilities = magic, is not all that satisfactory.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Movie Legolas looks to me like he's an Elven Fighter 15 (path of the champion), Monk 5 (path of shadow), with some means of casting haste once per short rest. (Maybe his footwear?)

He's got base speed 55 (35 wood elf, +10 mobile, +10 monk), the mobile feat, and 20 Dex. He's taken both Archery and Two Weapon styles. He's got Extra Attack 2

Weapons:
Paired scimitars +15, 1d6+5 slashing each.
Longbow: +15 to hit, 1d8+5 piercing

When he pops his haste... or his action surge...
He uses his base action to attack, making 3 shots or strikes.
He uses his additional action to attack, making 3 shots or strikes
If in melee and using the scimitars, he gets the offhand attack as a bonus.
If in melee range and using the bow at others, he drops a Ki point, and kicks the nearest enemy for 1d4+5.
He crits on 18-20.

So, he gets 7 attacks per 6 seconds for several rounds. And can keep up 4a per 6s indefinitely.
 

I'm confused by this assertion. in 5e Ritual Caster is a feat - it expressly gives you access to ritual spells and allows you to cast them (and even starts you off with 2 spells in your ritual book).

A variant human can be a ritual caster at 1st level, everyone else can do it by 4th+.

You should stop relying on the playtest to judge 5e. The Magic Initiate feat gives two cantrips and a 1st level spell from any one classes spell list. Prerequisite: None whatsoever. The Ritual Caster Feat has a prerequisite of 13 Int or Wisdom, not spell casting. Either feat is easily available to a 1st level Human fighter. (Although only a human)

You should well be confused Mort. I had a weird conflation of 13th Age's Ritual Casting mechanics (which fall short unfortunately) and the 5e playtest so I was just assuming it expanded Ritual Casting to those who already had spells. I've only got that and the Basic Set and what I've learned online of the expanded PC build components (such as feats).

So. Mea culpa. RItual Caster feat allowing noncaster classes to have a Ritual Book with a few Ritual spells scribed to start is a good PC build component. It leaves me wondering if the means for getting further Rituals is similar to 4e (eg - gaining further Ritual Books as treasure).

That being said, I still don't agree that the entry level is cheaper than 4e. 5e feats are considerably more weighty build components than they are in 4e. A single feat in 4e for RItual Casting is a fairly paltry investment with very solid return. Further, there are plenty of other means to get spellcasting (Arcane keyworded powers) in 4e (themes, multiclass feats, skill powers, etc). The entry is exceedingly low.

However given that you and Pemerton take the stance that resolution mechanics are detachable from the fictional overlay, you are perfectly capable of refluffing any ability as anything else. You are fully aware that you could make your fighter an Eldritch Knight at the rules level, but refluff all his abilities as sheer Mythic martial might at the fiction level. Fireball is throwing a wagon, or barrel of flaming oil one handed. Passwall is punching through a castles Barbican in a single blow. Given the ability to refluff, what more do you need?

Refluffing must be handled with extreme care in systems that have various component parts that interface with one another. There is a "balance butterfly effect" that ripples throughout the system when lack of proper due diligence takes place when making what is tantamount to a design decision. Consider some of the rulings that (the lead designer) Mearls has put forth as sensible when handling the action economy concerns of drawing and stowing /manipulating objects. A GM giving out free actions or condoning/not vetoing ways around the action economy constraints are rulings that would have fallout to classes that have base features and/or PCs that have Feat investment that provide action economy bonuses when drawing/stowing weapons or manipulating objects.

In a bounded system like 4e (with a mathematically transparent, codified, exception and outcome-based design chassis that has a unification of PC build mechanics and resolution) refluffing is intuitive and trivial given the elegance of the power source and keyword systems. In a rulings not rules system like 5e (or AD&D), the GM cannot just consider the 1st order effects of refluffing, but he also has to consider several 2nd and 3rd order effects that may not be transparent or intuitive. Making a change could have all kinds of concerns for the action economy specifically or could be problematic for balance generally as a quality control mechanism may not apply to this refluffing (such as detaching the arcane keyword and the system's balance predicates that are expected to come with that power source).

Beyond that though, we're still not communicating. The fiction is what happens in the game as a result of players making action declarations and possibly rolling some dice. If that action declaration connotes magic to the purveyors in the shared imaginary space (eg it is a spell or has the Arcane, Divine, Primal keyword), then it is magic. Neither unification of resolution mechanics nor segmentation of resolution mechanics makes something "magic" or undoes its "magic."

For instance, Dungeon World has a singular resolution mechanic; roll 2d6 + relevant modifier (typically 0 - 3). Whether you are performing the mundane actions of Hack and Slash, Defend, Defy Danger, or the action of Cast a Spell, you're using the same resolution mechanic. You roll your 2d6 + mod and add them up. 10 + you succeed at what you're aiming at, 7-9 and you have success at a price or some kind of fitting complication (such as disturbing the fabric of reality, attracting unwanted attention, or losing the spell if you're casting), and on a 6- something bad happens and you gain 1 xp. Defy Danger doesn't suddenly become magical and Cast a Spell doesn't suddenly become mundane because Bob and Sally (the players) use the same resolution mechanics to facilitate gameplay (and spit out the resultant fiction). To Bob's Rogue and to Sally's Wizard, Defy Danger is the mundane avoidance of some imminent peril (such as dodging dragon's breath) and the spell that Sally's Wizard has cast is finger-waggling, wand-waving, arcane-tongue invoking magic. Same for NPCs in the fiction.
 
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Andor

First Post
That being said, I still don't agree that the entry level is cheaper than 4e. 5e feats are considerably more weighty build components than they are in 4e. A single feat in 4e for RItual Casting is a fairly paltry investment with very solid return. Further, there are plenty of other means to get spellcasting (Arcane keyworded powers) in 4e (themes, multiclass feats, skill powers, etc). The entry is exceedingly low.

You are correct that a 4e feat is cheaper than a 5e feat. However it's still a low bar for entry for the Champion, Thief and Assassin which are the only subclasses that have no existing "magic" of any kind.

New rituals may be entered into the book whenever they are available at a cost of two hours and 50 gp per level, the same as a Wizard scribing a new spell into his book.

Beyond that though, we're still not communicating.

Indeed that is true. So let me ask for what will probably be the last time. Given the existence of martial characters ranging from flying barbarians to banishing smite paladins to lighting shooting rangers to the eldritch knight who can easily be refluffed (which is only a minor modification of an existing class and subclass and touches the action economy not at all.) Given that even if he later experiences 'buyers remorse' access to magic is no further away than his next feat or level. Given that the narrative control some seek is attainable even with 'mundane' fluff by the Lucky feat. Why, exactly, is it offensive that someone who wishes, for whatever reason, to play a character who is closer to Fafherd or Boromir than Herakles or Beowulf has an option in the book that allows him to do that? Why is it that it is bad that I can make a character who actually has to try to use persuasion and skill to get by in the world instead of just waving some bat crap around as a universal problem solver?
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
You are correct that a 4e feat is cheaper than a 5e feat. However it's still a low bar for entry for the Champion, Thief and Assassin which are the only subclasses that have no existing "magic" of any kind.

New rituals may be entered into the book whenever they are available at a cost of two hours and 50 gp per level, the same as a Wizard scribing a new spell into his book.



Indeed that is true. So let me ask for what will probably be the last time. Given the existence of martial characters ranging from flying barbarians to banishing smite paladins to lighting shooting rangers to the eldritch knight who can easily be refluffed (which is only a minor modification of an existing class and subclass and touches the action economy not at all.) Given that even if he later experiences 'buyers remorse' access to magic is no further away than his next feat or level. Given that the narrative control some seek is attainable even with 'mundane' fluff by the Lucky feat. Why, exactly, is it offensive that someone who wishes, for whatever reason, to play a character who is closer to Fafherd or Boromir than Herakles or Beowulf has an option in the book that allows him to do that? Why is it that it is bad that I can make a character who actually has to try to use persuasion and skill to get by in the world instead of just waving some bat crap around as a universal problem solver?

The easy answer here is that it's bad that RAW, you are pretty restricted in how you can create such a mythic warrior, and it takes a lot of hand-waving of mechanics that were designed for another effect, and usually

The harsher answer (which I mostly disagree with but whose logic I understand) is that the disparity in out-of-combat effectiveness between martials and casters can't be overcome by any reasonable amount of refluffing and character optimization and is an inherent and deep flaw in the system.
 

New rituals may be entered into the book whenever they are available at a cost of two hours and 50 gp per level, the same as a Wizard scribing a new spell into his book.

Thanks.

Indeed that is true. So let me ask for what will probably be the last time. Given the existence of martial characters ranging from flying barbarians to banishing smite paladins to lighting shooting rangers to the eldritch knight who can easily be refluffed (which is only a minor modification of an existing class and subclass and touches the action economy not at all.) Given that even if he later experiences 'buyers remorse' access to magic is no further away than his next feat or level. Given that the narrative control some seek is attainable even with 'mundane' fluff by the Lucky feat. Why, exactly, is it offensive that someone who wishes, for whatever reason, to play a character who is closer to Fafherd or Boromir than Herakles or Beowulf has an option in the book that allows him to do that? Why is it that it is bad that I can make a character who actually has to try to use persuasion and skill to get by in the world instead of just waving some bat crap around as a universal problem solver?

I think that a couple things have happened here to break down our communication. Somehow I've had a position attributed to me that I don't take. Throughout the entirety of my posting on this subject (on this thread and many others), I've held consistently to several positions:

1) Magic isn't magic because of differing resolution mechanics.

2) The physics of the D&D world (gravity, atmospheric friction, et al) that should bind/constrain the mundane kinesiology of all creatures uniformly does not do so. It arbitrarily constrains fantasy martial heroes to at or below our real world standards (of which I'm intimately familiar with) while simultaneously relaxing or outright ignoring those physical constraints on fantasy antagonists (dragons, giants, and our many arthropods - umber hulks, giant spiders, etc). Their physiology meeting real world physics should render their locomotion and/or their mere existence (large arthropods) an utter impossibility. Yet they persist. We look the other way the same way we do as HPs. Because D&D. But we don't admit this absurd double standard. If the standard was uniformly applied then we would have to let our fantasy martial heroes do things that physically we cannot relate to (such as vertical and horizontal leaps that are far beyond human excellence).

3) So how do we square the circle of 2? Well, we can unify the noncombat resolution mechanics into a singular conflict resolution framework with transparent, balanced math for each archetype and strong, clear GMing principles (this would be my choice). Wizards are rolling "cast a spell" checks the same as Fighters are rolling "the weight of my stare" checks the same as Rogues are rolling "there's always an out" checks. You can have your mundane classes stay mundane. You can have Batman fighting alongside Supes. You just can't have Batman fighting alongside his supernatural superior if the math and the resolution mechanics flat out say that one guy is A ball and the other guy is in the big leagues.

This is where "show me, don't tell me" comes into play. The easiest way to deprotagonize a martial hero is for the math and the resolution mechanics (and/or the rulings) to be off. You're GMing for Pat and Pat is stoked about his Batman Rogue archetype. He tells you all about this guy. Always has the right gadget for the job. Always has an off screen trump card that the bad guys couldn't possibly know about. Mixed martial artist badassery. Secret identity that lets him carouse with various power brokers and gather intel. The works. Well, these are all things that Pat "says" about his guy. But does this guy work out in play like that? In a task resolution system, with binary pass/fail, whereby he's failing even 1/4 of his checks (that is a better clip than 5e) and no narrative fiat (eg - legitimate trump card or "ace in the hole"), "show me" doesn't "show up." Batman may fail, as plot device, now and again in a, non-seminal, conflict. However, that is only in order to show his amazing resiliency or how "it was all a part of his plan." Further, in the "everyday doings of being Batman", he's basically "in the zone" non-stop. That is how he survives (thrives actually) and becomes legend in a universe filled with supercharged, over-the-top heroes. If you're playing Batman in D&D, you better have lots of narrative fiat abilities, and/or a whole lot of failing forward in a conflict resolution system.

In a binary, pass/fail, task resolution system where failure is even as low as 25% and the stakes are high, he ceases to become the legendary caped crusader and proceeds directly to the bumbling stain on the ground with the Benny Hill theme playing in the background.

So have your Boromir et al. Just make sure that the math and resolution mechanics "show" the hero and don't end up deprotagonizing the heroic (but mundane) archetype you're going for.
 
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Andor

First Post
Thanks.

I think that a couple things have happened here to break down our communication. Somehow I've had a position attributed to me that I don't take. Throughout the entirety of my posting on this subject (on this thread and many others), I've held consistently to several positions:

1) Magic isn't magic because of differing resolution mechanics.

Agreed. I think the fact that I propose reskinning spells as martial abilities should show I grasp this point. We also have both daily/encounter slot based 'mundane' abilities in class features such as Action Surge, Second Wind and Superiority dice and all day magical abilities like cantrips and a Monk's "Tounge of Sun and Moon".

2) The physics of the D&D world (gravity, atmospheric friction, et al) that should bind/constrain the mundane kinesiology of all creatures uniformly does not do so. It arbitrarily constrains fantasy martial heroes to at or below our real world standards (of which I'm intimately familiar with) while simultaneously relaxing or outright ignoring those physical constraints on fantasy antagonists (dragons, giants, and our many arthropods - umber hulks, giant spiders, etc). Their physiology meeting real world physics should render their locomotion and/or their mere existence (large arthropods) an utter impossibility. Yet they persist. We look the other way the same way we do as HPs. Because D&D. But we don't admit this absurd double standard. If the standard was uniformly applied then we would have to let our fantasy martial heroes do things that physically we cannot relate to (such as vertical and horizontal leaps that are far beyond human excellence).

To be fair this is not so sharp a divide as it seems. It's always been clear to anyone with the slightest grasp of biology or the cube-square law that many D&D creatures are sustained/function only due to magic. However it's also clear that even humans and other PC races partake of the supernatural. Every member of a PC race has an immortal soul which will survive corporeal death. This soul can be summoned and spoken with or even stuffed into it's old vessel to rejoin the living. It shows in their physical abilities like being able to stand in combat with giants and dragons, and their preternatural toughness at high levels when the soul, strengthed by many trials can simply refuse to quit the body in the face of outrageous injury. Shove a high level champion off an orbiting spelljammer and a few minutes later he'll dig himself out of the crater and dust himself off while regenerating back to 1/2 hitpoints.

3) So how do we square the circle of 2? Well, we can unify the noncombat resolution mechanics into a singular conflict resolution framework with transparent, balanced math for each archetype and strong, clear GMing principles (this would be my choice). Wizards are rolling "cast a spell" checks the same as Fighters are rolling "the weight of my stare" checks the same as Rogues are rolling "there's always an out" checks. You can have your mundane classes stay mundane. You can have Batman fighting alongside Supes. You just can't have Batman fighting alongside his supernatural superior if the math and the resolution mechanics flat out say that one guy is A ball and the other guy is in the big leagues.

This is where "show me, don't tell me" comes into play. The easiest way to deprotagonize a martial hero is for the math and the resolution mechanics (and/or the rulings) to be off. You're GMing for Pat and Pat is stoked about his Batman Rogue archetype. He tells you all about this guy. Always has the right gadget for the job. Always has an off screen trump card that the bad guys couldn't possibly know about. Mixed martial artist badassery. Secret identity that lets him carouse with various power brokers and gather intel. The works. Well, these are all things that Pat "says" about his guy. But does this guy work out in play like that? In a task resolution system, with binary pass/fail, whereby he's failing even 1/4 of his checks (that is a better clip than 5e) and no narrative fiat (eg - legitimate trump card or "ace in the hole"), "show me" doesn't "show up." Batman may fail, as plot device, now and again in a, non-seminal, conflict. However, that is only in order to show his amazing resiliency or how "it was all a part of his plan." Further, in the "everyday doings of being Batman", he's basically "in the zone" non-stop. That is how he survives (thrives actually) and becomes legend in a universe filled with supercharged, over-the-top heroes. If you're playing Batman in D&D, you better have lots of narrative fiat abilities, and/or a whole lot of failing forward in a conflict resolution system.

In a binary, pass/fail, task resolution system where failure is even as low as 25% and the stakes are high, he ceases to become the legendary caped crusader and proceeds directly to the bumbling stain on the ground with the Benny Hill theme playing in the background.

So have your Boromir et al. Just make sure that the math and resolution mechanics "show" the hero and don't end up deprotagonizing the heroic (but mundane) archetype you're going for.

Here's the deal as I see it. First the chance of failure is an unavoidable consequence of a chance driven game reality rather than a narrative reality. Secondly your player can claim to have made Batman, but he is full of it. For a whole pile of reasons D&D magic isn't really magic, it's technology. And Batman uses all the available technology up to and past the limits of super-science. While he prefers to punch people in the face due to some deep-seated issues he carries a vast arsenal of weapons and gadgets. In D&D terms this is magic. It could be external magic in the form of items, but IMHO it should also involve training based magic like the monk or (particularly for batman) purpose driven magic like the Oath of Vengance Paladin.

Also, and this is probably the more important point, Pat is playing the wrong system. D&D doesn't give players, even Wizards and Clerics, the narrative trump cards to always pull a gadget out of their hat for any occasion. Plenty of systems do allow for things like this, but D&D isn't one of them. However within the limits of the D&D framework I stand by my claim that fantasy Bruce Wayne would not eschew the magic that is technology within the D&D world.

Boromir was a Champion. He reveled in martial glory, despised the study of dusty tomes, fell to the lure of the ring, and died a hero becuase his attitude and preparation made him a mighty warrior but ultimately unequal to the challenges he face. His brother Faramir was not a Champion, he was a great warrior but he did not despise lore and study, he had lore enough to grasp the importance of the Hobbits quest and magic enough to mind probe Gollum to test his loyalty to the Hobbits. (Not sure how I'd stat Faramir in 5e, I'll have to contemplate that.)
 

Morty

First Post
The more I think about it, the more I lean towards the conclusion that 'magic' is frankly a meaningless term in a D&D-verse. Everything there is magical to us, sustained and created by forces outside real-world science - usually deities, but in more interesting settings it might be something else. There are creatures and phenomena that can't exist in real world, and yet they don't vanish in a puff of logic if you throw an anti-magic zone or Dispel Magic at them. So what we usually refer to as 'magic', that is to say, spells woven by wizards, sorcerers, clerics or whichever of the dozens of spell-casting classes D&D has churned out, is just a means of grabbing the fabric of the inherently magical world and giving it a yank, thus reshaping it directly. To us, a duellist who nails a fly to a wall with a thrown dagger whilst drunk and through thick smoke is like magic - it's not supposed to happen. But to the people in the D&D-verse, it's simply something that happens if you're good enough - extraordinary and probably the talk of the town where it happens, but not 'magic' like what wizards and priests do. So it simply becomes a question of what we're comfortable with people doing without putting on a robe and chanting faux Latin. Which is a whole other bag of cats.
 
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