Martial Practices how can we fix them, systematically?

[Garthanos]

A Complaint List Associated with Martial Practices

• General Flavor they are sometimes too mundane feeling instead of heroic, or legendary or mythic (just skill specializations for instance).
• They are often simply worse than analogous rituals. (this is probably the easiest element to fix)
• They step on the toes of simply interpreting skills to allow super human extremes.
  however I think reading the skills descriptions themselves do most of the limiting already for instance Athletics very much already lock away superhuman extremes (locked behind movement limits which are themselves not very adjustable)
• They step on the toes of skill powers (perhaps skill powers ought to be about the combat effectiveness of skill use not all of them are) NOTE - It might be argued that skill powers step on the toes of a DM simply allow skills to have real impact in a battle as well.

"Warriors and Wizards need explicit abilities for opposite reasons, the Wizards needs them to establish limits and the Warrior needs them to enable them to do truly awesome"


Let me know what I missed.

 

[The Human Target]

Get rid of rituals and martial practices, make utilities actual utilities and not combat powers.

 

[Garthanos]

Meh I think rituals are perhaps some of the most authentic magic in the entire game.

I have postulated what I called invocations which are effectively magical, divine and primal mini rituals which have the most in common with skills.

Which I suppose would give you something like magic based "utilities"

 

[Tony Vargas]

Meh I think rituals are perhaps some of the most authentic magic in the entire game.

Yep. Well, the most RL authentic, in the sense of what people actually used to believe about magic, and what modern practitioners do.

When it comes to fantasy, at-wills can also be pretty authentic. The typical evil sorcerer type might have one or two tricks he can kill people with in the moment, with no particular useage restrictions evident, and then do some big horrible working that the hero has to interrupt that can only be done 'when the stars are right' or something. They rarely do anything in between, like taking exactly 18 seconds to create a fireball, then forgetting how they did it, then doing it again the next day.



OT: For 5e, I've seriously considered doing away with 'slots' if I ever run a 'low magic' game. You could still play a caster, but it'd be all cantrips and rituals.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the place for practices is exactly the same niche that rituals serve for magic. They are things that are very specific, reasonably fantastic (but potentially some of them could be actually feasible, like being able to make perfect forgeries, just not something anyone could pull off without VERY VERY specialized training), and more elaborate than simply exercising a skill for a moment or using a power.

So, if it would seem appropriate as a ritual, it might well be appropriate as a practice, the difference being purely in the flavor. So, the Alarm ritual lets you set up magical alarms, an equivalent practice would just replace them with very cunning deadfalls and alarms. It might vary in the particulars vs the ritual, but the two would be pretty equivalent, or any significant differences would be dealt with via their levels and cost.

I'd note that high level practices are likely to be pretty much indistinguishable from rituals in the sense that they will be very fantastical and thus 'magical' in nature, though they will likely involve some core premise that is rooted in more mundane logic (they may involve craftwork or something similar for instance).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I definitely would not want to get rid of rituals. A problematic "spell" like Teleport was quite well-fixed just by making it a ritual. You can't just run away from being detected or combat, you can't teleport anywhere you want to go (only where the setting allows it), etc.

The Martial Practices seemed pretty weak, unfortunately. Some also didn't play nicely with others. There's one that let you run faster. Great. The rest of the party can move at regular speed, or use the Phantom Steed ritual and give everyone a high speed (plus sometimes the ability to walk on water).

 

[Garthanos]

I definitely would not want to get rid of rituals. A problematic "spell" like Teleport was quite well-fixed just by making it a ritual. You can't just run away from being detected or combat, you can't teleport anywhere you want to go (only where the setting allows it), etc.

Can't imagine why constraining wizards I win buttons would upset people can you?

The Martial Practices seemed pretty weak, unfortunately. Some also didn't play nicely with others. There's one that let you run faster. Great. The rest of the party can move at regular speed, or use the Phantom Steed ritual and give everyone a high speed (plus sometimes the ability to walk on water).

Yes team work MP seem a must have perhaps an advanced form of aid other "Skilled Guide" which allows even not so physical allies to reach beyond their limits... ought to be an MP.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Can't imagine why constraining wizards I win buttons would upset people can you?



Yes team work MP seem a must have perhaps an advanced form of aid other "Skilled Guide" which allows even not so physical allies to reach beyond their limits... ought to be an MP.

I don't think its BAD to have MP/ritual that only work on you, but its definitely more of a teamwork builder to have ones that work on everyone in the party. MOST rituals do that, and MOST MPs at least further the overall goals of the group too. Still, there are those that don't...

I certainly LOVE rituals, and I really like the concept of MPs as well, they are just likely to sit closer to 'reality' and thus have an easier time opening up issues. This is one of the reasons I've chosen not to have them as a separate category anymore in my game. That way you don't have people trying to decide if something is or isn't 'magical'. In fact my philosophy is that my campaign world is RUN on magic, there's no such thing as 'mundane physics'. Certainly pre-modern people generally thought that way to a large extent, so it helps mirror myth and legend if nothing else. I liked that 4e's Martial wasn't just "the power of mundanity" too. Truthfully they did have some pretty magical MPs as well, it wasn't a bad job in all.

 

[Garthanos]

Hmmmm the Disciple of Law Feats effects almost sound like the Skilled Guide Idea..

Disciple of Law is a heroic tier feat available to characters with a Wisdom score of 13 or higher.

Normally, the aid another action, when successful, grants the target a +2 bonus. Characters with the Disciple of Law feat receive a +5 bonus on their aid another check, and, when successful, grant the target a +3 bonus instead of +2.

There is an a warlord inspiring aid ability...
Whenever you or an ally who can hear you and who has line of sight to you takes the aid another, aid attack, or aid defense action, the bonus granted to the target equals +4 instead of +2.

Hmmmmm

How to bring this in to mps...

 

[Garthanos]

I think the place for practices is exactly the same niche that rituals serve for magic. They are things that are very specific, reasonably fantastic (but potentially some of them could be actually feasible, like being able to make perfect forgeries, just not something anyone could pull off without VERY VERY specialized training), and more elaborate than simply exercising a skill for a moment or using a power.

I want them to partake of more of the super human in many cases...

Is the pole vaulting an example of that aspect well maybe not... the context for it being superhuman only seems to arise within the context of a GrandMaster Training so I might have failed at my own goal even if the MP is functional within the rules for MP. Where as Blood Demand I think hits that sweet spot of awesome and legendary... as does the Blood Brotherhood rite.