D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Yaarel]

"Force" is a mechanical damage tag in D&D. It does not have any in-setting meaning beyond what DMs give it.

Likewise objects and characters interact with it using the rules dictated by the game designer and enforced by the DM.

Any and all such interactions can "make sense" because it is a piece of a fantasy game.

Nevertheless, the word "force" means something in English.

The Force damage type is akin to gravitational force, or atomic forces whence Disintegrate.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Nevertheless, the word "force" means something in English.

The Force damage type is akin to gravitational force, or atomic forces whence Disintegrate.

1. This is not an absolute truth. It is only your interpretation and not the only one available.

2. This is a fantasy game. Gravity and its kin are not off-limits from manipulation/breakage.

If the game says an action can break force stuff, then it can.

 

[Remathilis]

That's the thing though.

There isn't a debate.

Some of us would like to have a mythic fighter. That's just a fact. We would like to discuss exactly what that mythic fighter would look like. Also a fact.

The only "debate" is people repeatedly threadcrapping in order to derail any conversation. If you (and this is a general you) are not interested in the base premise of the thread, why are you here?

The question is not, "Do we need a mythic fighter?" That's the question you and a bunch of others insist we must have and somehow prove to your satisfaction before we move forward. No, the question is, "How do we make a mythic fighter in D&D and what would that look like?"

A hundred freaking pages of people endlessly threadcrapping is unbelievably frustrating.

It's absolutely a debate because it left discussion pages ago. And I don't mean a high school debate with rules and points, I mean a political debate with pundits and demagoguery.

You (and I mean general you) have painted everyone who will not accept your idea of a mythic fighter as threadcrapping. Nevermind that people have suggested separate classes that do what you wanted using supernatural abilities, it's not a.) Nonmagical and b.) Not the fighter so that's dismissed. it's threadcrapping because it doesn't fit the echo chamber.

I have tried to be open to ideas, but I have had a firm ground level: supernatural abilities need supernatural power sources. Taylor Swift is an excellent musician, but unless she is tapping into the Music of Creation, she isn't casting bard spells. She's at best someone with Expertise in Performance. I've asked how Pathfinder handles it and got some interesting thoughts. I asked if any other designers (major or amateur) have something akin to what is being proposed. Crickets.

So I get the memo. I'll leave you to your echo chamber where you can bemoan the fate of the 4e fighter for another 10 years. Maybe I'll work on my own Paragon class sometime.

 

[CreamCloud0]

But a person couldnt cause a "hole" in gravity by moving thru it.

The only way I could see the Fighter "force a hole" in a Wall of Force, would be if the Soul of the Fighter exerted a magical effect, to modify the shape of the area of Force.

This magic of the soul would have less to do with the Fighter being magical, and more to do with the limitations of Force magic itself. So Souls (and ether and other Force effects like Magic Missile) can interfere with Force Constructs.

no but the difference is wall of force would've been been manifested and is not a naturally occuring phenomenon, someone forcing their way through the spell could be enough justification that the magic is disrupted and displaced enough to form a hole there.

i'm tired of always hearing 'bUt ThAt WoUlDn'T Be PoSsIbLe WiThOuT uSiNg MaGiC' in these threads about making martials more viable AS MARTIALS, yes they could do that without magic you just need to stop being so closeminded about the ultimate supremity of magic being the answer to everything and how martials are trash weakings who can't do anything without it, it's a fantasy world 'ordinary' people can do these sorts of things.

Nevertheless, the word "force" means something in English.

The Force damage type is akin to gravitational force, or atomic forces whence Disintegrate.

it doesn't matter what the word means in the real world, if the game tells you a word means something in the game then that's what it means for the purposes of the game, if the game told me being 'frozen' meant i did lighting damage to everything i touch then thats what i'm going to assume someone means when they talk about being frozen in the game rather than being covered in ice or unable to move.

 

[Yaarel]

no but the difference is wall of force would've been been manifested and is not a naturally occuring phenomenon, someone forcing their way through the spell could be enough justification that the magic is disrupted and displaced enough to form a hole there.

i'm tired of always hearing 'bUt ThAt WoUlDn'T Be PoSsIbLe WiThOuT uSiNg MaGiC' in these threads about making martials more viable AS MARTIALS, yes they could do that without magic you just need to stop being so closeminded about the ultimate supremity of magic being the answer to everything and how martials are trash weakings who can't do anything without it, it's a fantasy world 'ordinary' people can do these sorts of things.

it doesn't matter what the word means in the real world, if the game tells you a word means something in the game then that's what it means for the purposes of the game, if the game told me being 'frozen' meant i did lighting damage to everything i touch then thats what i'm going to assume someone means when they talk about being frozen in the game rather than being covered in ice or unable to move.

To be clear, it is the narrative that is of interest to me.

Magic can produce various kinds of effects.

How does the effect work, and how to characters interact with the effect?

All of this requires a coherent explanation.

If the magic produces a Wall of Ice, then sure, a sword can hack thru it. If it is a Wall of Fire, then a Fighter can simply walk thru it − ouch. But a Wall of Force is something different. Its narrative interaction is different.

 

[Gammadoodler]

To be clear, it is the narrative that is of interest to me.

Magic can produce various kinds of effects.

How does the effect work, and how to characters interact with the effect?

All of this requires a coherent explanation.

If the magic produces a Wall of Ice, then sure, a sword can hack thru it. If it is a Wall of Fire, then a Fighter can simply walk thru it − ouch. But a Wall of Force is something different. Its narrative interaction is different.

Why? We don't specify any narrative justifications for how magic is able to produce these effects.

The game says that it can, and so it can.

 

[Yaarel]

Why? We don't specify any narrative justifications for how magic is able to produce these effects.

The game says that it can, and so it can.

Because narrative matters in a storytelling game.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Because narrative matters in a storytelling game.

Then make casters justify their magic on a spell by spell basis by these same pseudoscientific narrative standards. Should make for quality entertainment.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Because narrative matters in a storytelling game.

If you truly need something though.

"When enough force (heh) is applied, weapon attacks collect handwavium particles along their striking surface which can disrupt the imaginarium tethers which bind force constructs together"

Do old school damage reduction or something.

Ezpz

 

[Yaarel]

Then make casters justify their magic on a spell by spell basis. Should make for quality entertainment.

3e, 4e, and 5e are moving toward a theory of magic.

The "Weave" is a property inherent within existence itself. An antimagic area actually displaces the Weave, producing a void within the Weave.

The magic sources are different methods for producing magic: Arcane, Divine, Primal, Psionic, and perhaps Martial magic.

Arcane and Divine are different ways of interacting with the "Weave".

If I recall correctly, 3e views the Psionic method to rely on the personal Weave that forms as an aura around a mindful person. Perhaps in 5e, the personal Weave emanates from the soul (including mind, spirit/self, and ki/lifeforce/aura). It seems to me that Primal works similarly among the minds/souls of the beings of nature.