Mass Nondetection: 6th or 7th level?

[dungeon blaster]

Imagine a mass nondetection spell with effect of 1 creature/level. Should this be a 6th or 7th level spell?

 

[Felix]

I feel 6th is fine. That'll put it next to Abjuration spells like Globe of Invulnerability and Greater Dispel Magic. The benefit of the spell is balanced by the fact that you won't be preparing one of those Abjurations.

And certainly it isn't as powerful as Spell Turning.

Though perhaps 1 creature/ 2 levels is more appropriate. You'll still be able to blanket your usual 5-person party with it once you get it at level 11.

 

[Kerrick]

7th. Mass spells are always +4 levels. "Targets" is always "1 creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart." Although personally, I think this is hinky - you could conceivably make a chain of creatures 25 feet apart stretching out several hundred feet and affect them all. Better to make Range: 30-ft. radius and Targets: 1 creature/level.

 

[Felix]

"1 creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart." Although personally, I think this is hinky - you could conceivably make a chain of creatures 25 feet apart stretching out several hundred feet and affect them all.

Except that the first and last targets in line would be hundreds of feet apart. Which is "more than 30 ft. apart", so no dice there.

And if you want them to all be within 30 feet of each other, it should be "Radius 15 ft", not Radius 30.

7th. Mass spells are always +4 levels.

While this is true, look at the respective power level of the 6th and 7th level Abjurations.

6th
Antimagic Field
Globe of Invulnerability
Greater Dispel Magic

7th
Sequester
Spell Turning

Spell Turning must be more desirable than Mass Nondetection. Sequester makes the subject immune to Divination spells, though it does make them comatose and in stasis. And is Mass Nondetection only one level cheaper than the assuredness of Mind Blank? I feel like this spell is more in line with the power of Greater Dispel and the Globe of Invulnerability.

What makes Mass Nondetection a 6th level spell for me is that is it not infallable; there is still a caster-level check. At 11th level, enemy casters only need a 22 on their caster level check to scry (unless they target you, in which case it's 27); with the PCs at that level, they will begin to attract the attention of NPCs who won't have much trouble with a CL 22 check.

What this does for PCs is force the BBEGs to spend their higher-level mages' time in scrying you, because the low-level apprentices can't beat the caster-level check.

What this does for NPCs is make it ducedly hard for a reliable Scry-teleport scenario against them.

At 7th level, having that uncertainty of the caster level check is a high price to pay. Especially when at 8th level Mind Blank grants total immunity.

 

[Mark CMG]

Make it "Greater" nondetection at two levels higher than normal and a radius around the (single) creature or object touched.

 

[Crothian]

7th. Mass spells are always +4 levels.

Actually, they aren't always +4 levels. Mass Snake Swiftness is second level, one level higher then snake swiftness. Mass Lesser Vigor is third level two levels higher then Vigor. I'm sure there are others.

 

[Felix]

Actually, they aren't always +4 levels. Mass Snake Swiftness is second level, one level higher then snake swiftness. Mass Lesser Vigor is third level two levels higher then Vigor. I'm sure there are others.

I'm sure he was referring to PHB spells, but you do make the point.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Good idea for a spell. Let's see some of these competing versions written up!

 

[Vanye]

7th. Mass spells are always +4 levels.

Not always true:
1 level change - aid, mass, at 3rd level (SpC). align fang, mass (SpC), align weapon, mass (SpC), camoflage, mass (SpC),
2 level change - burrow, mass (SpC), contagion, mass (SpC), conviction, mass (SpC)
3 level change - Enlarge Person, Mass is 4th, as is Reduce Person. As is Mass Suggestion, at 6th level. Awaken, mass (SpC), is 8th.
5 level change - Invisiblity, Mass, is 7th.

There are many others, of course, from the SpC.

It should come down to flexibility. How useful is a mass burrow spell, generally? Not very often, really. It shouldn't be a 5th level spell (it's nowhere near as useful as Teleport, or even Passwall). On the other hand, some of them are too high a level for what they do - Mass Invisibility, for example, sucks, since the invisiblity is broken for all creatures affected if any affected creature attacks, unlike the 3rd level Invisibility Sphere, where it's only broken for the attacking creature.

Personally, I think that if it affects 1 creature per level, it should be a minimum of 2 levels higher, if it's only 1/2 levels I think a minimum of 1 level boost would be okay, and anything else is going to have to be based on what the original spell does...

 

[Mark CMG]

Once you get into using "Mass" to increase the "number of creatures (or objects?)" you get into whether they need to be together for the duration of the spell, or if they can immediately teleport off to the other side of the universe and still be covered by the spell. And since it can also be tied to an object, this is why I suggest moving to an X radius around a single creature or object (or x/level radius) rather than increasing the number of creatures (or objects?) targeted. "Greater" allows you to make a simple adjustment regarding the target without having to adjust other parts of the spell or make additional exceptions or rules to cover eventualities. Plus, you can justify doing it with a two level bump, as it does with other "Greater" spells. It also allows, at higher levels, the ability to mask a location rather than just a group of people.

Don't get hung up on what your perceptions of the word "Mass" means.