D&D 1E Mearls on AD&D 1E

[Tony Vargas]

When the 20s started at AC 1 then it was just written as THAC0 20*.

In the DMG? Nope, just 20 (look at the 'rat, giant' entry, for instance, or the Kobold).

Yes, my own experiences may differ from the US norm as the UK modules were widely available and popular here.....

I think Lanefan might have hit on something, then.
And modules did all kinds of alternate notations, or introduced their own little variants to cover this or that (common practice carried over from wargaming of the day).

but it was in the DMG too

No, it wasn't. The attack matrices were in the DMG, the notation you're talking about was in an appendix, it didn't say THAC0, it spelled out the phrase, and it didn't give the 2e THAC0 method for using the statistic.

 

[Sunseeker]

It's amazing how well this captures my comments from the PF2 threads. I'm not suggesting that Mearls is wrong about anything here, but it shows a striking contrast between the "hard math" approach PF2 seems to be taking in its development and the "feelings" approach that developed in 5E and is demonstrated in this article.

I get for some people D&D is more of a "feeling" than anything else, and I understand that. Not sure I can empathize with it though. Having not grown up with A/1/2E D&D I suppose perhaps I simply don't have the nostalgic attachment to it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

it shows a striking contrast between the "hard math" approach PF2 seems to be taking in its development and the "feelings" approach that developed in 5E and is demonstrated in this article.

I get for some people D&D is more of a "feeling" than anything else, and I understand that. Not sure I can empathize with it though. Having not grown up with A/1/2E D&D I suppose perhaps I simply don't have the nostalgic attachment to it.

Nod. I can pretty clearly see both sides. I was there for the fad years, avidly playing 1e, and definitely experience 'da feelz,' myself. But, I was also modding it, and, after a while, playing much more 'hard math' systems, as well as running AD&D across two editions.

 

[darjr]

I know this is going to be controversial but the “feels” versions of D&D have been the most successful versions. And I include 2e (somewhat) and the basic sets in that “feels” group.

I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Me I lean heavily towards the “feels” but I do like rules where it counts.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I know this is going to be controversial but the “feels” versions of D&D have been the most successful versions.

Well, sure. There was a fad in the 80s, that's when most D&Ders stared D&Ding. Those of us who kept at it perpetuated its values even as the game itself evolved a bit. Thanks to notoriety in the 80s, D&D is the only RPG with mainstream name-recognition, so it's the primary entry to the hobby. You go to try D&D, you have a fair shot at some crazy old guy like me introducing it to you, along with other anachronisms - like da feelz, and mony-python quotes. It has a sort of founders effect on the D&D and even broader RPG communities.

And I include 2e (somewhat) and the basic sets in that “feels” group.

It put a bit more in the players' hands, and made the game a bit more solidly-rules-based. 3.5 took that further. 5e dialed it back.

 

[Sunseeker]

I know this is going to be controversial but the “feels” versions of D&D have been the most successful versions. And I include 2e (somewhat) and the basic sets in that “feels” group.

I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Me I lean heavily towards the “feels” but I do like rules where it counts.

My opinion on the subject is that "feels" are what I inject to the game at the table. I don't need to buy books for feels. I can make that part up from simple exposure to fantasy throughout my life on what I like and what I don't like. For a game I'm looking for rules that let me express my feels, but don't impart someone else's feels into my game.

That may be one reason I don't enjoy 5E so much, too much of someone else's feels about D&D in my games. I guess when there's a shared "muh feelz" about D&D then that's not a problem, if you share Mearls feelings that's great, if you don't though it's a problem.

Successful or not successful doesn't mean a whole lot to me in that context. I'm looking for a game that lets me play my game, not someone else's game.

 

[darjr]

I think using “fad” is to dismissive of why dnd was popular in the 80s and now, and less popular in between. I seen and read many anecdotes about people turning away from D&D for other things after the 80s and early 90s and I while I think it has a ton to do with the things people were turning to, i think it also has to do with D&Dstsrtkng to lose out on its steangths, and the main one being that ephemeral “feels” that mearls talks about. Now that it’s back in 5e D&D is as popular as it’s ever been and growing!

A thing that was almost thought impossible just a few short years ago. It was common knowledge that our hobby was dying.

Thanks to this 5e bringing back the “feels” it just may have helped to usher in a new golden age. With a huge helping hand of actual play and streaming.

 

[darjr]

Gah, typing in my phone is killing my verbiage.

 

[JonnyP71]

Gah, typing in my phone is killing my verbiage.

Ditto, I’m trying to work on my kids’ device, away from the practicality of my PC!

Tony, we’re going to have to agree to disagree. Starting as I did in 83, playing predominantly modules of that era which included THAC0, it seemed logical to me that the
phrase and the abbreviation were one and the same,that the 20* format from the modules was just them being more helpful to include more info than the DMG appendix, and that THAC0 felt like a core aspect of the game from the word go.

I guess the impression in the US was different, but that does NOT mean it was a 2E invention. That assertion is patently false. UK2 Predates 2E by 6 years and is the earliest use of the abbreviation that I have found.

 

[JonnyP71]

I think using “fad” is to dismissive of why dnd was popular in the 80s and now, and less popular in between. I seen and read many anecdotes about people turning away from D&D for other things after the 80s and early 90s and I while I think it has a ton to do with the things people were turning to, i think it also has to do with D&Dstsrtkng to lose out on its steangths, and the main one being that ephemeral “feels” that mearls talks about. Now that it’s back in 5e D&D is as popular as it’s ever been and growing!

A thing that was almost thought impossible just a few short years ago. It was common knowledge that our hobby was dying.

Thanks to this 5e bringing back the “feels” it just may have helped to usher in a new golden age. With a huge helping hand of actual play and streaming.

Plenty of reasons we’re entering a new golden age

5E is very good, it’s flexible, and adaptable to multiple styles of play
The original old gits are coming back to the hobby, increased disposable income, this is borne out by the fact that prices in the second-hand market are rising quickly as we feel that burn of nostalgia
The success of the LOTR films and the popularity of MMORPGs
Society is more accepting of people who are ‘different’... and we tend to be
The geeks rule the world... Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk.. these are all Now role models