D&D 5E Mearls on other settings

[MechaPilot]

But, no one is disagreeing with you here.

It feels an awful lot like they are. That's part of the reason I've repeated that so often.

Of course things need to maintain the theme, tone and feel of the setting. However, that's a pretty vague guideline and it's not too difficult to think of examples that might satisfy one person and not another.

Sure it's vague, but that's good. It offers plenty of room for addition, change, and innovation. Not everyone will agree with additions, changes, etc., but as long as those things hold to the themes, tone, feel & character of the setting then I think WotC can reasonably say they've been true to the identity of the settings.

The problem that I'm having here is that Zardnaar is setting himself up as gatekeeper and trying to maintain a setting purity that is just completely unrealistic outside of a single table.

Yeah, like I said previously, I don't really agree with Zardnaar on the details of what he's prefer to leave out.

For me, it's up to the DM of a given table to set up the campaign in accordance with that DM's (and presumably group's) aesthetics in mind.

Granted. But, each setting has its own aesthetics to start with. DM modifications for the tastes of a particular group can occur from there.

Trying to gatekeeper new settings in order to maintain some notion of setting purity is just bad business.

If you mean requiring it to be identical to the original setting release, then I agree.

People really, really need to make the distinction between their personal tastes and what is actually good for the setting. "I don't like it" is NEVER justification enough for not making a change. No, scratch that. It's certainly good enough for your table. But most definitely not good enough for a general product.

I agree. "I don't like it" is a poor justification for any published product.

"Oh, Curse of Strahd isn't really Ravenloft" is a pointless argument to make. It sold fantastically well, and heck, is continuing to sell pretty darn strongly a year later. That's the justification for the changes they made, right there.

I haven't bought, run, or played CoS yet, so I have no real opinion on how Ravenloft it is. Given that the original writers were brought back for the product, it's hard to argue that the product wasn't true to the Ravenloft setting (That said, I could change my mind on that once I read the book).

But, I have to remind you that popularity is meaningless in asking if a product stayed true to the character of the original setting. FR is popular, and an FR supplement would probably sell well, but it wouldn't be Spelljammer just because they slapped the Spelljammer name and logo on an FR book and it sold well.

 

[Shasarak]

Look, I totally get wanting to take a setting and mold the game around that setting. I'm doing that right now. My Primeval Thule campaign has all sorts of major restrictions - no full casters, 4 playable races, just to name a couple. Great, fantastic. make the setting stand out. BUT, don't expect the publisher to do that. That's totally unrealistic. No publisher is going to cut off their own nose to spite their face. If they publish a restricted setting like you want, no one will buy it.

You say that no publisher would do that and yet here we are with the 4e Forgotten Realms as an actual product. So what publishers will or will not do is maybe not as cut and dried as you may imagine.

 

[Shasarak]

I'm just being realistic here. WotC is not going to do this. They just aren't. It's suicidal business practice to create a product that is only going to appeal to a tiny slice of your already pretty darn small consumer base without making sure that that product appeals to as many as possible. The more restrictive you make the setting, the less it appeals to the broader audience.

WotC doesn't do vanity projects anymore.

Then they should just do everyone a favour and flog off their old vanity products to someone else that can actually make it work which at this stage is basically everyone else in the RPG market.

 

[cbwjm]

You say that no publisher would do that and yet here we are with the 4e Forgotten Realms as an actual product. So what publishers will or will not do is maybe not as cut and dried as you may imagine.

I think 4e FR is more a case of molding the setting to fit the game rather than molding the game to fit the setting.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think 4e FR is more a case of molding the setting to fit the game rather than molding the game to fit the setting.

They did that with 4E Dark Sun as well. Neither one was very good. And they have removed most of the 4E changes.

 

[Shasarak]

I think 4e FR is more a case of molding the setting to fit the game rather than molding the game to fit the setting.

And, if that is the case, then do we want to recreate the same mistake by trying to mold every setting to fit the game? Is Sandstorm and the PHB the same as an actual DarkSun? Is Stormwrack and the PHB the same as an actual Spelljammer?

 

[Hussar]

/snip for stuff I agree with

But, I have to remind you that popularity is meaningless in asking if a product stayed true to the character of the original setting. FR is popular, and an FR supplement would probably sell well, but it wouldn't be Spelljammer just because they slapped the Spelljammer name and logo on an FR book and it sold well.

Meh, I'm not really sure that's true. If they basically ported Spelljammer into Forgotten Realms as the baseline (now obviously there would have to be more to it than that, but, we'll say that our putative new Spelljammer setting bases itself out of FR for the sake of argument) and it sold well, then, well, that's the new Spelljammer. People accepted the changes and bought the product. Win win. Would it be different than the original? Sure, but, then again, who cares so long as its popular enough to sell well enough to make WotC happy?

I'd point to Princes of the Apocalypse (porting Greyhawk stories into FR), and now the new Chult module porting Acerak into FR as pretty good examples of doing it right. Granted it can certainly be done wrong too.

You say that no publisher would do that and yet here we are with the 4e Forgotten Realms as an actual product. So what publishers will or will not do is maybe not as cut and dried as you may imagine.

People keep bringing up 4e Forgotten Realms. Thing is, I think you are learning the wrong lesson here. 4e FR had zero chance of success, regardless of what they did with the setting. Saying that 4e's reception was problematic is pretty uncontroversial. So, any 4e elements that they brought into Forgotten Realms would be dead in the water as a very vocal group of fans would lose their collective minds. Dragonborn were problematic. Tieflings were problematic. The entire 4e system was problematic. WotC had already lost before they even started.

Add to that a soft reboot that more or less invalidated earlier material (about which a core group of fans felt VERY strongly) and there was just no chance that 4e FR was going to get off the ground.

Really, 4e Darksun faced the same issue. 4e was just too unpopular for any setting to succeed.

Thing is, 5e doesn't have that problem. 5e is very, very popular. People accept the system pretty unreservedly. So, the first hurdle for adding 5e mechanics to a given setting has already been jumped. Now, the question becomes, how do we mold Setting X into 5e mechanics?

Ejecting 1/2 the 5e PHB is just not going to be the solution.

 

[Hussar]

And, if that is the case, then do we want to recreate the same mistake by trying to mold every setting to fit the game? Is Sandstorm and the PHB the same as an actual DarkSun? Is Stormwrack and the PHB the same as an actual Spelljammer?

Well, Stormwrack wouldn't work since that's a sea supplement. But, I can see most of the Dark Sun mechanics being done using Sandstorm. Other than specific setting material (Defilers, and the various high muckitymucks of the setting) you'd be pretty far down the road if you used the PHB and Sandstorm to do Dark Sun.

Granted, I'd LOVE to see the Environmental Series updated to 5e. Those were some of the best 3e books out there.

 

[Sadras]

Mystara: Despite its rooting in Basic (when options were limited) I don't see anything in that setting that specifically excludes any options from the PHB (drow replaced by shadow elves, perhaps?)

True the PHB works well with Mystara, there will be a few changes to the races though, such as:
Hin (Halflings) receive the special 'No' ability in the Five Shires.
Lycanthropy is fatal to demi-humans, unless cured.
Dwarves have resistance to magic.

However, Tieflings and Dragonborn...perhaps these creatures are new abominations from the Savage Coast. A DM can obviously make them fit with a story, but those races are not truly native to the Known World.

 

[Shasarak]

People keep bringing up 4e Forgotten Realms. Thing is, I think you are learning the wrong lesson here. 4e FR had zero chance of success, regardless of what they did with the setting. Saying that 4e's reception was problematic is pretty uncontroversial. So, any 4e elements that they brought into Forgotten Realms would be dead in the water as a very vocal group of fans would lose their collective minds. Dragonborn were problematic. Tieflings were problematic. The entire 4e system was problematic. WotC had already lost before they even started.

Add to that a soft reboot that more or less invalidated earlier material (about which a core group of fans felt VERY strongly) and there was just no chance that 4e FR was going to get off the ground.

Really, 4e Darksun faced the same issue. 4e was just too unpopular for any setting to succeed.

That is pretty convenient that 4e Forgotten Realms is excused because it was the H4ters that were the problem not the actual supplement itself. That sounds like the kind of spin that Tony would come up with to explain why the most popular RPG setting is tanking. And honestly if I had not read the thing myself I may be tempted to believe it.

Thing is, 5e doesn't have that problem. 5e is very, very popular. People accept the system pretty unreservedly. So, the first hurdle for adding 5e mechanics to a given setting has already been jumped. Now, the question becomes, how do we mold Setting X into 5e mechanics?

Ejecting 1/2 the 5e PHB is just not going to be the solution.

Right, so 4e Dark Sun was too unpopular to succeed and yet with the much more popular 5e backing it somehow 5e Dark Sun is ...too unpopular to succeed?

Maybe the 2e Dark Sun never actually really succeeded, just some kind of glitch in the matrix when the Berenstain Bear patch was uploaded.