D&D 5E Mearls on other settings

[Aldarc]

Look, I totally get wanting to take a setting and mold the game around that setting. I'm doing that right now. My Primeval Thule campaign has all sorts of major restrictions - no full casters, 4 playable races, just to name a couple.

Curious, but which four playable races?

 

[Hussar]

That is pretty convenient that 4e Forgotten Realms is excused because it was the H4ters that were the problem not the actual supplement itself. That sounds like the kind of spin that Tony would come up with to explain why the most popular RPG setting is tanking. And honestly if I had not read the thing myself I may be tempted to believe it.

Not quite my point. It wouldn't have matter what they wrote for 4e FR. It wasn't going to succeed because far too much of the fanbase had rejected 4e. Even when 4e was an ongoing thing, it still only seemed to capture about 40% of the fanbase. The other two thirds wouldn't like any FR supplement simply because they didn't like 4e.

Whether or not it was good, bad or indifferent is largely irrelevant. It could have featured the best writing in history and it still would have tanked. Marry an unpopular system to changes that were also pretty unpopular and well, it's not a surprise that they are backtracking most of the changes.

Right, so 4e Dark Sun was too unpopular to succeed and yet with the much more popular 5e backing it somehow 5e Dark Sun is ...too unpopular to succeed?

Maybe the 2e Dark Sun never actually really succeeded, just some kind of glitch in the matrix when the Berenstain Bear patch was uploaded.

Umm, I think you're missing the point. No one has claimed that a 5e Dark Sun would be unpopular. 4e Dark Sun, again, because it was tied to 4e, had zero chance of gaining broader acceptance. Like Forgotten Realms, they could have done a line by line recreation of 2e Dark Sun and it still would have failed because 4e failed. When you've lost 2/3rds of your fanbase, it doesn't really matter what you do from that point forward. The writing was on the wall.

What's being argued here is that a 5e Dark Sun, that leverages 5e mechanics (classes, races, whatnot) would have the advantage over 4e of actually being a system that is widely accepted. We're to the point (looking at what's being played on Virtual Tabletops anyway) where 5e is being played more than every other game combined.

Obviously that was never true in 4e.

So, if people apparently LIKE 5e, bringing out a setting that rejects 1/4 of the 5e PHB, and rewrites pretty much all the baseline assumptions, in an attempt to recapture the setting as it was presented for 2e (a system that no one actually plays anymore - at least, not enough to actually matter) is not something that any business manager will ever go for.

IOW, any 5e setting from earlier editions is going to have to be rewritten to some degree to accomodate that new edition. Trying to gatekeeper the setting by claiming that earlier canon must be adhered to out of some nebulous sense of trying to keep the setting "true" to its roots, is not going to succeed.

You have a choice. Either the setting will sit on the shelf and never be used, or you will get an updated setting that will leverage the popularity of the current edition. Those are the two options that are going to see the light of day. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

AFAIC, as I said earlier, they might as well go all in. Update the setting, using the current edition as a baseline, molding and modifying the setting to fit the system and then leave it up to individual tables to modify from there.

 

[Hussar]

Curious, but which four playable races?

Actually, baseline Thule only has 4 playable races - humans (various cultures), dwarves, halflings and elves. Actually, to be perfectly honest, I misspoke there. I wasn't actually too strict on this and was more than willing to entertain more options. Aarakocra have recently become a very viable option in the campaign.

My fault for typing faster than I was thinking.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not quite my point. It wouldn't have matter what they wrote for 4e FR. It wasn't going to succeed because far too much of the fanbase had rejected 4e. Even when 4e was an ongoing thing, it still only seemed to capture about 40% of the fanbase. The other two thirds wouldn't like any FR supplement simply because they didn't like 4e.

Whether or not it was good, bad or indifferent is largely irrelevant. It could have featured the best writing in history and it still would have tanked. Marry an unpopular system to changes that were also pretty unpopular and well, it's not a surprise that they are backtracking most of the changes.




Umm, I think you're missing the point. No one has claimed that a 5e Dark Sun would be unpopular. 4e Dark Sun, again, because it was tied to 4e, had zero chance of gaining broader acceptance. Like Forgotten Realms, they could have done a line by line recreation of 2e Dark Sun and it still would have failed because 4e failed. When you've lost 2/3rds of your fanbase, it doesn't really matter what you do from that point forward. The writing was on the wall.

What's being argued here is that a 5e Dark Sun, that leverages 5e mechanics (classes, races, whatnot) would have the advantage over 4e of actually being a system that is widely accepted. We're to the point (looking at what's being played on Virtual Tabletops anyway) where 5e is being played more than every other game combined.

Obviously that was never true in 4e.

So, if people apparently LIKE 5e, bringing out a setting that rejects 1/4 of the 5e PHB, and rewrites pretty much all the baseline assumptions, in an attempt to recapture the setting as it was presented for 2e (a system that no one actually plays anymore - at least, not enough to actually matter) is not something that any business manager will ever go for.

IOW, any 5e setting from earlier editions is going to have to be rewritten to some degree to accomodate that new edition. Trying to gatekeeper the setting by claiming that earlier canon must be adhered to out of some nebulous sense of trying to keep the setting "true" to its roots, is not going to succeed.

You have a choice. Either the setting will sit on the shelf and never be used, or you will get an updated setting that will leverage the popularity of the current edition. Those are the two options that are going to see the light of day. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

AFAIC, as I said earlier, they might as well go all in. Update the setting, using the current edition as a baseline, molding and modifying the setting to fit the system and then leave it up to individual tables to modify from there.

Seems to me you could use 5E popularity to make a more faithful adaption popular.

How about he 1st boxed set are the core DS races, the 2 boxed set+ new PHB races are optional races.

Races that do not exist (Gnomes, Half Orcs, Drow) stay goneburger?

Most of the classes get added except perhaps spellcasting bards. Slight retcons are used to fit some of them in (most Templars are clerics, some are warlocks).

Some classes might get variant options (barbarian unarmored defence), not all archetype will be present most of the PHB classes (no Paladins) will be though? Paladins mayhave to go into the optional category like some races.

If there is an out right contradiction, the earlier material takes precedence if you can't retcon it in logically (2E contradicts itself let alone 2E vs 4E).

Flipping through Unearthed Arcana and various 2E splats.

 

[Mecheon]

I mean, its simple to get Dragonborn to work as Dray. Just ditch the Second gen and focus on the first

Sick back and enjoy

Dray

The mis-begotten children of the undead Dragon-King and self-styled deity, Dregoth, the Dray were once human, an experiment from their creator to make a race of perfect servants in his own image. The Dray were not what he wanted. Instead of the beauty and grace he sort, he had created a race he saw as brutes. With sharp jagged claws, mottled, uneven scales and hunched postures, the Dray were far from the perfect beings. Dregoth, unwilling to destroy his own creation, banished them from his realm, exiling them to the giant cavern of Kragmorta while he worked upon an attempt to create a second, superior breed

He didn't expect them to escape, to leave that cavern. But they did. And the Dray have taken to the 'lessons' Dregoth taught them well. For although Dregoth had not perfected them, the Dray that did escape found themselves in a world they did not understand. But the gifts he had left them with: Strength, powerful natural weapons in the forms of their claws and teeth, and the rare ability to breathe flame (Possibly an adaptation from their time in Kragmorta, or from the magical and unnatural nature of their creation) helped them to survive, carving out any opposition.

It also made them attractive to the slavers, but that's Athas for you

 

[Zardnaar]

I mean, its simple to get Dragonborn to work as Dray. Just ditch the Second gen and focus on the first

Sick back and enjoy

Dray

The mis-begotten children of the undead Dragon-King and self-styled deity, Dregoth, the Dray were once human, an experiment from their creator to make a race of perfect servants in his own image. The Dray were not what he wanted. Instead of the beauty and grace he sort, he had created a race he saw as brutes. With sharp jagged claws, mottled, uneven scales and hunched postures, the Dray were far from the perfect beings. Dregoth, unwilling to destroy his own creation, banished them from his realm, exiling them to the giant cavern of Kragmorta while he worked upon an attempt to create a second, superior breed

He didn't expect them to escape, to leave that cavern. But they did. And the Dray have taken to the 'lessons' Dregoth taught them well. For although Dregoth had not perfected them, the Dray that did escape found themselves in a world they did not understand. But the gifts he had left them with: Strength, powerful natural weapons in the forms of their claws and teeth, and the rare ability to breathe flame (Possibly an adaptation from their time in Kragmorta, or from the magical and unnatural nature of their creation) helped them to survive, carving out any opposition.

It also made them attractive to the slavers, but that's Athas for you

Racial write up give that race information the PCs should have no idea about.

 

[Yaarel]

This kind of setting-specific race flavor, is what the Dark Sun campaign setting needs.

But it and its race must be 100% in the hands of the DM, for the DM to decide whether or not to insert it into the setting. Nothing else in the campaign setting should refer to it.

The options need to be as compartmentalized as possible, to make it easy for the DM to opt in or opt out.

 

[Mecheon]

Racial write up give that race information the PCs should have no idea about.

Dray know they're created by Dregoth. I mean, you know, they only worship him as a god and hope they'll come back into the fold in 2E (Which of course won't happen)

I just made it more realistic rather than 'pining for someone who clearly doesn't love you' to turn it into 'let's go take some of that anger out on the surrounding countryside'

 

[Aldarc]

Once upon a time, Dark Sun sought to be edgy and different by not including various races, such as orcs, gnomes, and kobolds. However, it has become increasingly more difficult for me to buy into that edginess when I consider how it still includes the standard options such as humans, elves, halflings, and dwarves. So even the original 2E setting feels like a half-hearted implementation of its own setting. Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings produced under the D&D label, but I prefer defining my sense of Dark Sun by the general tone of the setting: tyrranical sorcerer-kings oppressively ruling the small pockets of a barbaric civilization amidst an unforgiveably harsh, dying desert planet that has been killed by life-draining arcane magic. The races and classes included, in some respect, simply exist as something akin to the "ribbon abilities" that add a touch of flavor to the setting, but are not somehow inherently meaningful in their own right. Most playable races existed simply for the sake of #OurElvesAreDifferent, #OurDwarvesAreDifferent, or #OurHalflingsAreDifferent, etc. Most races don't really contribute anything meaningful to the setting's history, apart from a few exceptions. They are referenced primarily to the extent that they either died or survived Rajaat's genocide project. They fill out the world, but they are kinda just there and, ironically, often with a similar degree of half-heartedness that plagues the settings that Dark Sun sought to subvert (cf. "elves live in forests" vs. "elves wander the deserts").

It seems like a sensible solution for any Dark Sun supplement would be to provide references to past editions and suggestions for how to possibly integrate new and old races into any Dark Sun game. A racial entry for drow, for example, may say that drow have not officially appeared in previous iterations of Dark Sun, but if a GM decides to include them, then the entry may suggest that they could represent the decendants of a group of elves who sought refuge from Athas's harsh sun and dangers of the surface world in a possible subterranean realm only to discover that worse horrors, with similar aims, awaited them there. Or, in regards to gnomes, that while forest and rock gnomes were wiped out, deep gnomes managed to survive by hiding and refusing refuge for their kin, a guilt that hangs on their collective memory.

 

[Zardnaar]

Dray know they're created by Dregoth. I mean, you know, they only worship him as a god and hope they'll come back into the fold in 2E (Which of course won't happen)

I just made it more realistic rather than 'pining for someone who clearly doesn't love you' to turn it into 'let's go take some of that anger out on the surrounding countryside'

That is one reason why I do not think they are a great PC race, they can go around blabbing or the Dray player can ask the DM about Dregoth and then blab to everyone else.

Its like the Shadow Giants, sure they exist should not be a PC option (or Thamasku Halfling etc).

2E did have stats but in that context you were also supposed to go and discover them, not play them (initially).