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Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage

Geron Raveneye

Explorer
I'll concede one point..something is wrong with the CR of the Ogre Mage if a "simple" Ogre Vampire has a CR of 5 while having a much more powerful Domination effect, gaseous form, alternate form, and a whole host of other goodies that a vampire gets handed, like d12 HD and a 1d8 slam attack that drains 2 levels. :uhoh:

Now I really wonder about the validity of Challenge Ratings. A CR 5 ogre vampire would eat a standard 5th level group for lunch if they didn't come specifically loaded for duck. :confused:
 

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Delta

First Post
Sarellion said:
Charm Person is a nice spell but still limited. I wonder why it is hyped so much as the mastermind´s control spell.

Because in all previous editions, it lasted indefinitely long. Every few days or weeks the victim could try another saving throw.
 

ruleslawyer

Registered User
Geron Raveneye said:
I'll concede one point..something is wrong with the CR of the Ogre Mage if a "simple" Ogre Vampire has a CR of 5 while having a much more powerful Domination effect, gaseous form, alternate form, and a whole host of other goodies that a vampire gets handed, like d12 HD and a 1d8 slam attack that drains 2 levels. :uhoh:

Now I really wonder about the validity of Challenge Ratings. A CR 5 ogre vampire would eat a standard 5th level group for lunch if they didn't come specifically loaded for duck. :confused:
Of course, by the RAW, there is no such thing as a vanilla ogre vampire, since ogres are giants (an ineligible type for the template).
 

Scribble

First Post
kigmatzomat said:
I don't have a problem with the Mearls OM except that....it isn't an oni and as a long-time player, I want the OM to be oni.

Aren't there rules for Oni in the Oriental Adventures book already?
 

Geron Raveneye

Explorer
ruleslawyer said:
Of course, by the RAW, there is no such thing as a vanilla ogre vampire, since ogres are giants (an ineligible type for the template).

True...then make it a minotaur vampire. Is a CR 6 beastie, and even a tad nastier than an ogre vampire. Somehow I doubt a standard 6th level group would really like facing it either. :lol:
 

Scribble

First Post
Geron Raveneye said:
True...then make it a minotaur vampire. Is a CR 6 beastie, and even a tad nastier than an ogre vampire. Somehow I doubt a standard 6th level group would really like facing it either. :lol:

You know... I don't think I could use that monster... Ever...

There are just entirely too many jokes to be made about piffed off blood sucking cows...
 

Taraxia

First Post
Not familiar with OA, but an Ogre Mage that was actually faithful to the Japanese oni would be quite a bit more powerful than either the original Ogre Mage (which was, face it, a really crappy and hamhanded way of trying to simulate an oni, which they had the nerve to call "the Japanese ogre", which *already* showed their problem with the concept) or this new, spiffy Ogre Mage.

Oni are, after all, spirits who are essentially tied to elemental forces, immensely powerful and feared, control the weather, combat other forms of evil spirits on a regular basis, and so on. Not a CR 8 Giant with wacky SLAs. I would imagine, or hope, that OA's oni are more diverse, flavorful, intelligent and flexible than the original Ogre Mage.

Mearls' Ogre Mage is *just as good* for what it does as the original Ogre Mage -- make an ogre-based spellcaster/fighter-type character (I don't know about you, but the *flavor* of Ogre Magi always screamed "gish" to me, not "vampire-like master manipulator") who is vaguely Japanese oni-*inspired* in what he does. The flying and invisibility still works for that, and contrary to what some people seem to think, _lightning bolt_ is a *better* fit for an oni than _cone of cold_ as an ability, since oni are traditionally linked to thunderstorms more often than they're linked to ice or snow. And, in fact, oni's cleverness are usually linked to their brutality and strength -- the Ogre Mage was inspired by oni in the first place because in Japanese culture the oni is used as a representation of raw, untamed forces of nature -- so the Sneak Attack damage and such makes more sense for depicting an oni than any ability that involves oni taking over people's minds and seducing them and crap. That's far more a tengu-style thing than an oni-style thing -- oni don't use magic to manipulate and seduce you, they use it to beat the crap out of you. They're spirits of war and strength, not trickster spirits. Like all spirits they have a weird, tricksy side to them -- they appear, they vanish, they cause trouble beyond what their mere physical actions would indicate -- but they are, indeed, closer to the European folklore about the Ogre and the Giant than the Faerie.
 
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sjmiller

Explorer
I am dragging this reply from another thread, so as not to stomp all over it.

Taraxia said:
Mearls' criticism -- echoed by other designers in other columns -- is that if you look at the original Ogre Mage he's a hodgepodge of essentially random SLAs that were *originally* chosen by cherrypicking various random magical powers various oni have been said to have in Japanese folklore.
Can you provide quote from other designers, or links to their columns? I would be quite interested in hearing what other designers have to say on the subject of ogre mages.

Taraxia said:
As Mearls' pointed out, the mechanical use of the Ogre Mage (fly in, blast with cone of cold, turn gaseous and run away) doesn't even match the actual flavor text and illustration, where he's shown being a muscular badass with a greatsword and being a cunning leader of other ogres.
While it is true that the picture shows a hulking brute with a greatsword (inappropriately, IMHO), the SRD at least does not mention anything about leading other ogres. It says:
SRD said:
The ogre mage is a more intelligent and dangerous variety of its mundane cousin.

An ogre mage stands about 10 feet tall and weighs up to 700 pounds. Its skin varies in color from light green to light blue, and its hair is black or very dark brown. Ogre mages favor loose, comfortable clothing and lightweight armor.
Nowhere does it mention being a cunning leader of other ogres. I am not sure where this portrayal comes from.

Taraxia said:
(Don't the typical encounter stats say he hangs out with other ogres? Isn't his environment in the wilderness? Doesn't the illustration show him all tattooed and whacking things with his sword?)
The typical encounter for an ogre mage, according to the SRD is solitary, pair, or troupe (1-2 plus 2-4 ogres), so they are not always found with their mundane cousins. Their environment is listed as cold hills. The illustration does show him with a big sword, but he’s not whacking anything nor is he tattooed. The illustration is, IMHO, inaccurate. A creature that is 10 feet tall and weighing up to 700 pounds would not look like the muscle-bound, hulking creature in the illustration. They would have to be leaner, thinner, but still well muscled. Think of your typical Siberian Tiger on two legs.

Taraxia said:
Nothing has been sacrificed of the OM's *actual* flavor -- he's just been altered to *fit* the flavor he actually has in the text.
That’s not technically true. The ogre mage has been altered to fit an image that is not present in the text, but is at least partially inferred by an inaccurate picture. The text says he is intelligent and dangerous, and infers (from the height, weight, and clothing preferences) a creature rather unlike the one shown in the picture or presented in Mr. Mearls’s “revision.”
 


Knight Otu

First Post
sjmiller said:
Can you provide quote from other designers, or links to their columns? I would be quite interested in hearing what other designers have to say on the subject of ogre mages.
The Monster Makeover article links to the Proud Nails article by David Noonan.

While it is true that the picture shows a hulking brute with a greatsword (inappropriately, IMHO), the SRD at least does not mention anything about leading other ogres. It says:
Nowhere does it mention being a cunning leader of other ogres. I am not sure where this portrayal comes from.

The typical encounter for an ogre mage, according to the SRD is solitary, pair, or troupe (1-2 plus 2-4 ogres), so they are not always found with their mundane cousins.
But when they are found with their mundane cousins, who'll be the cunning leader of those other ogres?
 

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