Medium characters grappling large creatures?

[WaterRabbit]

The Carrying rules say I cannot drag something larger that 30 times my strength score, but the grappling rules say I can move a grappled creature but at half my speed.



So whether I can or can not will depend on a ruling on the GM.

I can see it going either way, and wouldn't care as long as the DM is consistent. What I don't agree with is the Carrying rules somehow having precedence because they occur earlier in the book. I don't think that argument has any merit.

No one said or implied that rules have precedence because they occur earlier in the book.

However, what you do imply is the following scenario: You come across a statue that weights 10 tons. Clearly by the encumbrance rules you cannot move it (it is medium-sized and made of solid gold). However, you decide to grapple it and then move it 15' per round out the door.

That is why both rules work together. They don't conflict, so there isn't a specific beats general case here.

Or even more ridiculous, you grapple a brown bear and drag it around, but then after you kill it, you cannot move it out of the way because it is too heavy.

 

[BookBarbarian]

No one said or implied that rules have precedence because they occur earlier in the book.

Greenstone Walker asked where the Carrying rules were, and then answered his own question with "Earlier in the PHB" If order of the rules didn't have have a place in his argument what was the point of asking and answering that question?

But perhaps I have been chasing after a red herring and should just let that go.

However, what you do imply is the following scenario: You come across a statue that weights 10 tons. Clearly by the encumbrance rules you cannot move it (it is medium-sized and made of solid gold). However, you decide to grapple it and then move it 15' per round out the door.

Grapples are a contest. The statue cannot grapple or be grappled.

That is why both rules work together. They don't conflict, so there isn't a specific beats general case here.

Or even more ridiculous, you grapple a brown bear and drag it around, but then after you kill it, you cannot move it out of the way because it is too heavy.

Or while grappling the Brown bear you use its own movements against it. Diverting its momentum into the direction you want to go resulting in moving half your speed in the direction you wish with the brown bear still grappled.

Upon it's death it no longer moves at all and since you can no longer leverage its own movement against it you are forced to use only your own strength to move it and thus are unable to.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Greenstone Walker asked where the Carrying rules were, and then answered his own question with "Earlier in the PHB" If order of the rules didn't have have a place in his argument what was the point of asking and answering that question?

But perhaps I have been chasing after a red herring and should just let that go.

Grapples are a contest. The statue cannot grapple or be grappled.



Or while grappling the Brown bear you use its own movements against it. Diverting its momentum into the direction you want to go resulting in moving half your speed in the direction you wish with the brown bear still grappled.

Upon it's death it no longer moves at all and since you can no longer leverage its own movement against it you are forced to use only your own strength to move it and thus are unable to.

A statue can be grappled, it just loses the contest. Logically, it is no different than grappling a person.

I would have to see an example of a single person grappling a brown bear and "diverting its momentum into the direction you want". It also is contradicted by your assertion that grapples are contests. A bear actively working against a character in combat should be much much more difficult to move than one just lying around dead.

 

[BookBarbarian]

A statue can be grappled, it just loses the contest. Logically, it is no different than grappling a person.

You are free to rule that way if you wish.

I would have to see an example of a single person grappling a brown bear and "diverting its momentum into the direction you want".

I don't. For me D&D is not a realism simulator. Heroes can do heroic things even if they are unrealistic.

It also is contradicted by your assertion that grapples are contests.

Not at all. the Bear is actively resisting the grapple. The greater skill and ability of the hero is what allows her to turn that active resistance against it.

A bear actively working against a character in combat should be much much more difficult to move than one just lying around dead.

If that makes the game more fun for you and your players sure, go for it.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

In the event of a conflict, apply common sense. If you can't budge it when it is dead, you aren't going to be able to budge it when it is alive and uncooperative!

Hypothetically, a creature could be large and not very heavy though, such as a gas spore or giant vulture.

Or even more ridiculous, you grapple a brown bear and drag it around, but then after you kill it, you cannot move it out of the way because it is too heavy.

Just to clarify: When you talk about "grappling" you both seem to be requiring the grappler to be bodily lifting or dragging their opponent rather than head/arm/whatever locks or gripping somewhere sensitive.
Is that correct?

A statue can be grappled, it just loses the contest. Logically, it is no different than grappling a person.

Logically the fact that a person is capable of supporting their own weight and has a tendency to more in fairly predictable ways under some stimuli would indicate that moving them whilst you have a grip on them would be easier than a 1 ton statue.

This is visible in for example videos of police actions: a demonstrator who goes completely limp requires several officers to carry. One that stays upright and under their own power can be moved by one when put in a hold.

I would have to see an example of a single person grappling a brown bear and "diverting its momentum into the direction you want". It also is contradicted by your assertion that grapples are contests. A bear actively working against a character in combat should be much much more difficult to move than one just lying around dead.

A dead horse for example, is probably flat-out too heavy to move unassisted. A living horse however, even one that doesn't want to go with you can be forced to move in a direction under its own power.
The creature might be making attacks with the intent of killing/injuring you, but gripping the ears or lips for example may still allow you to drag it around.

 

[Oofta]

According to the 3.5 SRD, an iron golem weighs 5,000 pounds. I find it hard to believe that any human could move 2.5 tons because "grappling". That same golem that would require Superman like strength to budge if it were no longer animated.

Heaven forbid the grappling rules just don't include the wording "limited to your drag capacity" because the authors made the decision to not write the rules like computer code.

Oh well. To each their own, I know how I'll rule if it ever comes up at my table.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It's a good solution if you want people to never bother grappling, I guess.

It's also a good solution if you want grappling to be rare - limited to situations where it is both physically plausible, and where circumstances warrant dragging the battle out much longer than is necessary. It's no loss whatsoever to suggest that "when fighting a larger creature" should not be one of those rare circumstances.

So you don't try to wrestle a ten-foot iron golem. You don't try to strangle a hydra, either. Why would anyone even consider such a thing in the first place, unless the rules foolishly declare that it's a good idea?

 

[BookBarbarian]

According to the 3.5 SRD, an iron golem weighs 5,000 pounds. I find it hard to believe that any human could move 2.5 tons because "grappling". That same golem that would require Superman like strength to budge if it were no longer animated.

Not necessarily Superman. A level 6+ Bear totem barbarian with Powerful build from race, and the Brawny Feat from UA, and 21+ strength from a belt of giant strength could drag more than 5000lbs.

Heaven forbid the grappling rules just don't include the wording "limited to your drag capacity" because the authors made the decision to not write the rules like computer code.

Where are the weights for creatures listed in the 5E SRD? Where does it say that a 5E Iron Golem is the same mass as a 3.5E Iron Golem. How would a DM that has just the 5E resources at their disposal know how much their Iron Golem weighs? Would they even care what it weighs?

Is the Brown Bear that has been used as an example in this thread already a 400lb Female inland Grizzly or a 1500lb Male Coastal Brown Bear? Should I even have to care about that as a 5E player or DM?

Oh well. To each their own, I know how I'll rule if it ever comes up at my table.

Without hard defined weights in the 5E statblocks this is very DM dependent. Which is why I can see it going either way, and lean towards the simpler solution of not caring about weight since Grappling is already limited by Size category.

 

[Oofta]

Not necessarily Superman. A level 6+ Bear totem barbarian with Powerful build from race, and the Brawny Feat from UA, and 21+ strength from a belt of giant strength could drag more than 5000lbs.



Where are the weights for creatures listed in the 5E SRD? Where does it say that a 5E Iron Golem is the same mass as a 3.5E Iron Golem. How would a DM that has just the 5E resources at their disposal know how much their Iron Golem weighs? Would they even care what it weighs?

Is the Brown Bear that has been used as an example in this thread already a 400lb Female inland Grizzly or a 1500lb Male Coastal Brown Bear? Should I even have to care about that as a 5E player or DM?



Without hard defined weights in the 5E statblocks this is very DM dependent. Which is why I can see it going either way, and lean towards the simpler solution of not caring about weight since Grappling is already limited by Size category.

As far as what could drag 2.5 tons, I'll take your word for it, but that's not the point.

If I don't think someone should be able to drag a golem-sized statue made of iron, then they won't be able to drag an iron golem. Being animated doesn't make it any easier to drag. If you let people drag anything then it doesn't matter. I don't allow rule loophole silliness in my game.

But run it the way you want. I don't know that it's ever come up in any game I've been involved in and it's not worth arguing about.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I don't know that it's ever come up in any game I've been involved in and it's not worth arguing about.

I agree 100% on this.