Meeting minimum feat prerequisites

[Petronius_Ironfist]

Not to be too much of a noob' but I need to know if my extremely 4th lvl, weak monk -

S12 D16 WI 15 I 10 Co 12 C 8

can get some of the cooler unarmed combat feats (flying kick, roundabout kick) by gaining a magical item that boosts my strength. Are feat prerequisites only met with natural, unadjusted ability scores or would a magic item like gauntlets of ogre strength, or a belt of giant strength, get me over the top? Thx.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The magic items can help you meet the prereqs. Note, however, that if you lose the magic items, you also lose access to any feats that depend on that ability score.

Take, for instance, Power Attack. It requires a Strength of 13. Let's say you take that because you're wearing Gloves of Strength +2. You also take Cleave and Great Cleave.

Should your Strength ever drop below 13, you lose access to Power Attack. Since you've lost access to Power Attack, you also lose access to Cleave and Great Cleave.

 

[Vurt]

The magic items can help you meet the prereqs.

Is there some passage in the SRD or one of the core books that specfically mentions this? It comes up from time to time and I'd like to be able to cite a source when next it does.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Scion]

Is there some passage in the SRD or one of the core books that specfically mentions this? It comes up from time to time and I'd like to be able to cite a source when next it does.

not as strongly as you would likely prefer, but here is something:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

It doesnt say you need to have a sufficient 'unmodified' ability score, merely that you have it.

Also, epic feats often require 'very' high ability scores. you basically need something to enhance your score in order to be able to use them.

Should your Strength ever drop below 13, you lose access to Power Attack. Since you've lost access to Power Attack, you also lose access to Cleave and Great Cleave.

note that this is not true.

You still 'have' power attack, so you could 'potentially' still use the other two. However, cleave 'does' require a str of 13 so you still cannot use it.

However, if cleave only had a prereq of power attack then you could still cleave. Loseing the ability to use something and actually loseing it tend to be different things for feats.


(unless of course I have completely missed a rule somewhere but the quote I posted above says you cannot use, not 'lose' or 'do not have anymore')

 

[Lord Pendragon]

note that this is not true.

You still 'have' power attack, so you could 'potentially' still use the other two. However, cleave 'does' require a str of 13 so you still cannot use it.

However, if cleave only had a prereq of power attack then you could still cleave. Loseing the ability to use something and actually loseing it tend to be different things for feats.

I'm not sure whether I'm House Ruling it or not, but I've always ruled it the way Patryn describes. I figure that Cleave is something of an advanced Power Attack, which is why PA is a prereq. So if you can't Power Attack anymore, even if you still know how to Power Attack, you can't Cleave, because Cleaving is something of a modified Power Attack. Same with Dodge-->Mobility-->Spring Attack. Each is an advanced technique that incorporates the previous technique in the move.

So it always struck me as sensible that if you can't use any prereq feats, you can't use the end feat either. If you ain't got no foundation, you ain't got no house, as it were.

The fact that Cleave does list Str 13 as a requirement is interesting, though. One would think that if it was meant to work as I've described, it wouldn't be needed, since a strength less than 13 would void Power Attack, which would automatically void Cleave. Then again, redundancy is not exactly a foreign concept to D&D.

 

[thalmin]

I believe it was in a FAQ for 3.0, or maybe Sage Advice, but I seem to recall a ruling if the magic item had a continuing effect, and was worn/used nearly all the time, then it could be counted towards prerequisites. (No potions, no sharing so more than one person could count the effect.)

 

[Scion]

So it always struck me as sensible that if you can't use any prereq feats, you can't use the end feat either.

But you do still 'have' the feat, you just cant use it.

In a similar vien, if you are tied up and cannot move you still have proficiency with bastard sword. Sure, you cant 'use' your strength score for much of anything, but you still have it

(or being held, whatever, you still have your str score and still have proficiency.. not that it will matter pretty much ever I suppose.. although maybe for telekinesis while being tied up)


Or, point blank shot and far shot. You cannot use point blank shot in most situations where far shot will matter, but point blank shot is a prereq for far shot. You still have access to it, you just cant use it for this particular case.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But you do still 'have' the feat, you just cant use it.

I understand your reasoning, Scion. I don't even think it's bad reasoning. I just tend to follow a different line of thought on this one.

IMO, "having" a feat means having learned the technique. Having the knowledge, as it were. But you have to be able to use a prereq feat to use one that builds on it, because it's not just the knowledge that is being built upon, but the actual maneuver. To Cleave, you are employing a modified Power Attack. If you can't Power Attack, for whatever reason, then you can't Cleave. It doesn't matter if you still remember how to Power Attack. You can't do it. Whatever's stopping you from doing a Power Attack also stops you from doing a Cleave, because a Cleave is a Power Attack, modified or improved in some way.

Perhaps if feats weren't so linear, I wouldn't feel this way. But to my eye, nearly every feat chain works this way. Mounted Combat grants greater mount control, to the point where you can avoid some attacks through fancy riding. Take that a step further, and you can use that fancy riding to prevent attacks as you ride past your foe while attacking. Learn how to do that, then adopt a more complex stance during the attack, and do extra damage all the while... Mounted Combat-->Ride-By Attack-->Spirited Charge. Again, each feat builds on the previous feat's operation. If you can't do the fancy riding of Mounted Combat, then you can't perform the complex stance necessary for the Spirited Charge. Everything is based on the foundational feat. Without it, nothing else works.

But as I said, this may be a House Rule on my part. I understand your reasoning, and I see how one could differentiate between having a feat, and being able to use it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But as I said, this may be a House Rule on my part. I understand your reasoning, and I see how one could differentiate between having a feat, and being able to use it.

Can I use Whirlwind Attack if I'm Raging?

Can I use Spring Attak if I'm blind?

-Hyp.

 

[Petronius_Ironfist]

Thanks All for the info. I'll try to keep my stats up so I'm not left hanging.