Melee Cleric Build

[Dandu]

Using a shield is bad because you don't get much AC at mid to high levels, you have to invest in at least one feat in order to to use it as a weapon, and by then you're two weapon fighting, a style that is inferior to two handed fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage such as sneak attack.

 

[Goodlad]

The DM gave us our statsa for the chars.

We have 18,16,16,14,14,10

So the 18,16,16 will be distributed to strength,con and wisdom.
The 14 can go into dex and then at 4th level the +1 stat can be put into dex to bring that to 15 which is whats needed for two weapon fighting.

If we base things off say a level 9 cleric which will be cleric 4,ordained champion 5.

Attack:

Base Attack: +8
Strength (16): +3
Weapon focus Flail from the war domain: +1
Two weapon fighting -2

Total attack bonus : +10


Damage:

Main hand:
D8 + 3

Offhand:
D6 + 3

Now factor in the reserve feat:
At this stage i will have access to level 4th level spells because of the two caster level drops. So this will give me an additional +4 to damage on each attack.

So the damage from each attack will be +7 now.

Of couse i didnt factor in any stat items, magic weapons or anything.

Usine the same setup:

A greatsword for example:

Attack:

Base attack +8
Strength (16) +3

Total attack bonus : +11


Damage:

2D6 + 4

So it either 2D6+4 or D8+7, D6+7

While the top end damage comes off better with the 2 hander, you will do only slightly less damage with the dual weild but you will also get more swings which brings the damage above the 2 hander (provided you hit with the extra swings).

With spells like magic weapon/greater magic weapon. The difference between dual weild and a 2 hander will widen more since you can enchant both weapons with dual weild.


Sorry if that was all a bit long or over the top! lol

Im just posting it rather than working it out on paper so you can see it and agree/dis-agree or just give your thoughts in general on it.

 

[Dandu]

Keep in mind there's a lot of good spells and enchantments for weapons, for which you will have to pay double for if you want to enchant a double weapon.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Using a shield is bad because you don't get much AC at mid to high levels, you have to invest in at least one feat in order to to use it as a weapon, and by then you're two weapon fighting, a style that is inferior to two handed fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage such as sneak attack.

So don't use it as a weapon then. A heavy shield adds +2 to +7 AC, I fail to see how that is a small amount. Granted, later levels you can pay for a +5 animated shield. But by then...nothing's stopping you from switching to 2H fighting anyway. What kind of build did you have in mind where 2 handing a flail will make a much bigger difference over one hand? Aside from Power Attack.

 

[Dandu]

So don't use it as a weapon then. A heavy shield adds +2 to +7 AC, I fail to see how that is a small amount.

AB scales much more quickly than your ability to have AC, unless you focus heavily on it.

Then you find that your lack money for other things, and die anyways because high AC is meaningless against many opponents.

What kind of build did you have in mind where 2 handing a flail will make a much bigger difference over one hand? Aside from Power Attack.

Power Attack.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

AB scales much more quickly than your ability to have AC, unless you focus heavily on it.

At higher levels, good AC protects you from iterative attacks. And prevents some crazy melee cleric or what have you from unloading on you with full power attack.

Then you find that your lack money for other things, and die anyways because high AC is meaningless against many opponents.

1.) Armor bonuses cost half as much as weapon bonuses. For the price of upgrading a +2 weapon to a +3 weapon, you could enhance masterwork armor and shield from nonmagical to +2 each and still have 2000 gp left to spend. After a certain point, it becomes very very feasible mathematically to hold off on +1 hit/damage versus gaining several points of AC.

2.) That's a gross overgeneralization and depends a lot on DM. I've seen high AC matter in a lot of games, and most opponents in the campaigns I've played both attacked AC regularly and had an attack bonus neither too large or too small to marginalize the difference between a PC with mediocre AC and one with high AC.

Power Attack.

Cute.

Like I said, you can pick that up when you get the shield animated just as easily. I thought you were actually using some sort of feat chain with it. And Divine Power isn't even available until level 7. Until then, you don't really have the BAB or attack bonus to get much benefit from power attack anyway.

 

[Dandu]

At higher levels, good AC protects you from iterative attacks. And prevents some crazy melee cleric or what have you from unloading on you with full power attack.

Doesn't really protect you from the crazy melee cleric casting Blasphemy and making your wet your pants.

You also didn't address the statement I made, which was "AB scales much more quickly than your ability to have AC, unless you focus heavily on it."

1.) Armor bonuses cost half as much as weapon bonuses. For the price of upgrading a +2 weapon to a +3 weapon, you could enhance masterwork armor and shield from nonmagical to +2 each and still have 2000 gp left to spend. After a certain point, it becomes very very feasible mathematically to hold off on +1 hit/damage versus gaining several points of AC.

And is it enough of a boost to justify the expense?

2.) That's a gross overgeneralization and depends a lot on DM.

What does high AC do against the following:
Dragons
Shadows
Solars
Balors
Pit Fiends
Illithids
Liches
Hydras
Answer: It protects you from their melee attacks. Unfortunately, said monsters have means of attacking you that bypasses your AC.

That monsters will have ways of bypassing your AC is not an overgeneralization.

Like I said, you can pick that up when you get the shield animated just as easily.

Not happening at the lower levels though.

And Divine Power isn't even available until level 7. Until then, you don't really have the BAB or attack bonus to get much benefit from power attack anyway.

Divine Favor, Prayer, and other spells I've probably forgotten will be able to boost your AB.