Microlite20 : the smallest thing in gaming

[bytor4232]

How about this simplification:

Everyone can do one thing each turn; move, attack, cast a spell, etc. The surprising group goes first, or else both groups roll 1d20 + highest DEX bonus and the winning group goes first.

In other words, if the party has a super teenage ninja elf, he rolls for initiative, always. His presence positively affects everybody.

As for Open Office, Greywulf: You saw that some of my stuff is available as OO files, right?

What I've done in the past is bell curve. I roll once for the bad guy group. The PCs all roll and the highest and lowest roll gets dropped, and average whats left. It sounds complicated, but I do it pretty fast in my head. Its a lot easier than trying to keep everything in order.

As an example, a bunch of orcs are attacking the PCs. I roll once for the orcs they get a 16. My players all roll. The players all roll a 26, a 15, a 13, and a 3. I drop the 3 and 26, the average between 15 and 13 is 14. The orcs go first. When the PCs go the guy who rolled the 26 will go first, then clockwise around the table.

This might be too complicated for Microlite20. I would suggest suprise goes first, otherwise someone rolls for the party. It will keep it pretty simple that way.

 

[eyebeams]

I've sent you an email, Greywulf.

 

[jmucchiello]

DUN DUN DUN!!!




I am weak

 

[greywulf]

eyebeams, email received, understood and replied to. The sparrow flies at midnight.

If that doesn't get more DUN DUN DUNs from jmucchiello, nothing will

Re: no initiative. I dunno still. I guess if I /had/ to sacrifice the die rolll at the beginning of combat, I'd just say everyone goes in reverse DEX order with the DM counting down.

"OK, who's got DEX 19....18.....17....ok, it's your turn....16....15....now it's the gnolls....14...."

But then you'd need the DEX stat for Monsters in Microlite20, and that means more creature feep when we're trying to get less.

Kensanata, the only problem with the initiative system you've suggested is that attacks will always alternate between the two groups (assuming equal group sizes). That means there's no wiggle room for tactical play between two characters who have turns next to each other.

Lemme give an example:

A party of four adventurers (Fighter, Magi, Rogue and Cleric) hear noises from behind a dungeon door. Feeling confident, they decide to burst in and surprise the occupants. The fling the door open and see four surprised goblins.

Round 1:
Rogue: I fire my crossbow (it hits Goblin 3)
Goblin 1:Hides behind his bed
Fighter: I charge!
Goblin 2: Hides behind his bed
Cleric: I fire my shortbow (misses)
Goblin 3: Roars in anger and charges the door
Magi: I toss in a magic missile. Kills Goblin 3
Goblin 4: Hides behind his bed

That should have been a surprise attack, but three of the goblins managed to hide just fine, and only silly Goblin 3 (RIP) was downed.

If the players had rolled initiative, I'd have given them +2 to the roll for surprise meaning their turns are likely to be frontloaded compared to the Goblins. It would probably go something like this:

Round 1:
Rogue: I fire my crossbow (it hits Goblin 3)
Cleric: I fire my shortbow at the same Goblin (Hit, kills him)
Fighter: I charge!
Goblin 1:Hides behind his bed
Magi: I toss in a magic missile. Kills Goblin 2
Goblin 4: Hides behind his bed, craps his pants

The Rogue and Cleric could target the same Goblin to bring him down and the Goblins are in a much weaker position as a result of the surprise attack. Especially Goblins 2 and 3.

Under Kensanata's system, the difference between surprise and no surprise is that one party memeber gets the first attack.

I still dunno. Convince me some more

 

[Ry]

I thought what Kensanata was thinking was:

Rogue: Fire crossbow
Cleric: Fire crossbow
Fighter: Charge
Mage: Magic Missile
<Goblins go>

 

[jezter6]

I've played D&D off and on since the late 80s, and rycanada states it exactly how we played it all the way up to 3e. We used a simple d10 roll, PCs vs bad guys, winner got to go first. It stayed that way the duration of the combat. Anyone who joined the combat late automatically went last.

However, we didn't assume that it was 'everything happens at once.' If you killed the figther before his turn, he was dead. It was very easy to gang up and interrupt. Then again, we never used maps or minis and the DM just fudged positions/ranges. If I were to do it all over again, I would do it the same way, just assuming that the fighter died at the end of the round, and got his attacks this round.

That's one of the reasons I don't like cyclic initiative. It sort of assumes that everyone is waiting around for each other to do their action until thir turn, which doesn't happen.

 

[greywulf]

So the entire group would go first? Wow! What if the bad guys got to go first (say, they get surprise)? That could chew right through a party in just one round, surely. Likewise if the good guys went first. In a lot of combats I've played through, the bad guys wouldn't even get a hit in the first round of combat. One fireball, then the rest of the party mops up, and it's over.

I'd love to be convinced on this one, and whatever comes up will go in the Macropedia regardless, but I still don't see it as an improvement over rolling initiative at the start of combat. The only system I've seen which improves on that was HERO with it's strict 12-Phase system. Now that's a thing of beauty.

I just checked, and combat in Classic Traveller was supposed to be simultaneous (with the possibility of surprise rounds). I don't remember how we played it - I wasn't DM - but that does tickle a memory. The way that worked was:

1. Both sides roll for surprise. If one side gets surprise then they get a free round. Surprise is maintained provided nothing is done to raise the alarm. Silenced weapons, silent attacks and no screams could keep one side unaware they are being attacked at all
2. When surprise is broken, combat is resolved simulteneously
3. Each combatant declares actions and resolves them
4. Any dead are removed from play at the end of the round

Y'know, it might just work..........

As an aside - in core D&D, we use Reflex save as the Initiative modifier rather than just DEX (the Improved Initiative feat still adds +4 to initiative however). This means a Rogue will likely always have the edge in combat to can get in position for the Sneak attacks, and being able to react in combat improves with experience for all characters, just as it should be.

As written in D&D, a DEX 18 1st level Wizard has the same chance to go first as a 20th level DEX 18 Rogue. I just don't see it myself, hence the change.

 

[jezter6]

Well, we were young and stupid. But then again, it was a fun role playing game and not a full on tactical battle. No squares, no grid, no minis, no map. Just the DM saying - you bust in the door and the goblins are about 30' off to your left. There were no movement squares either...you could either run up and engage in melee, or not - depending on if it seemed like your max move would allow it be that way. Instead of counting squares, you just said 'I stay out of crossbow range of the kobold while charging the evil wizard.' It worked back then, we just accepted it and pictured it in our minds.

 

[greywulf]

Ain't nothing wrong with that

And we still don't use minitaures, battlegrids and all that crap. So I guess we're still young and stupid. In our minds, at least!

 

[jezter6]

I guess as a follow up - yes, one group could completely decimate the other group if that was the case. The DM played the bad guys pretty fair - they would gang up a little, but try to spread out the damage fairly, or he'd just roll for random targets. But, if everyone got to go in the round, no matter what the initiative, it doesn't much matter. Sure, the PC's go first and all attack the fighter...the fighter STILL gets his attack with the bad guys, he just drops dead at the end of the round. Then again, we weren't much in the way of tactical back then. Line good guys vs bad guys - everyone attacks until death.