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D&D 5E Might&Magic: the linear fighter and the exponential wizard

What I am saying is: D&D is not a supers game - expecting a fighter to pull off supers stunts sets you up for disappointment.
If we're not already playing a Super game, then why is the wizard flying around like Superman and shooting disintegration beams out of his eyes?

At least, that's the argument, as I understand it. Nobody really plays D&D because they want to play Supers; they play D&D because they want to play D&D, but half of the PCs ended up playing Supers anyway due to un-even scaling of character progression. It was a noticeable problem in earlier editions.

In order to fix this disparity, the designers can either let the fighter act like Thor, or prevent the wizard from acting like Superman. Whether or not they've succeeded at the latter is a matter of perspective.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Maybe lol. Or maybe D&D can have non-casters and casters emulate the same genre. Right now we have super casters and weaksauce non-casters. Gandalf lobbed like 6 spells total and they mostly sucked. THAT's the kind of character to adventure alongside Boromir. If we're playing a game of magic superheroics, the martials should be superheroes too.
Spoken as if 5th edition didn't exist and to a great extent ameliorated the issue. But let me repeat myself:

It really isnt the problem it used to be.

In fact, it's one of 5th editions greatest successes, how fighters remain relevant and useful to parties of any level.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
If we're not already playing a Super game, then why is the wizard flying around like Superman and shooting disintegration beams out of his eyes?
You mean just before somebody plinks an arrow at him and he falls to his death, screaming?

This isn't a supers game, flight doesn't work that way.

PS. The Wizard is much better off casting Fly on his fighter buddy, who doesn't stop flying just because somebody plinks arrow at him and wouldn't die from the fall anyway. Still, not a supers game. DS.
 

Spoken as if 5th edition didn't exist and to a great extent ameliorated the issue. But let me repeat myself:

Like, if I quote myself can I declare it to be true as well?

4E was the closest we got to fixing the issue. Unfortunately it wasn't a success, because players who were spoiled on 3E just flocked to Pathfinder, who showered casters with even more goodies like a newly divorced dad. 4E gave narrative control of tactical combat to non-casters in a way that actually simulated the genre, while severely limiting casters non-combat utility.

5E removed narrative abilities from everyone but casters, and then gave casters more back. It's actually a regression IMO. No, I don't want to play 4E, I want 5E actually balanced and fighters/rogues/warlords to get to do cool things again. That should be easy enough to do.

I'll point you towards your recent Rogue thread. When all martials are really allowed to excel at is "DPR on a stick", they really can't keep pace with casters who can nova and toss out plot altering effects without playing "mother may I" with the DM (and sadly often their fellow players). Rogues aren't even really better at skills than bards, and that's a full caster class too!
 

You mean just before somebody plinks an arrow at him and he falls to his death, screaming?
The chance of that happening is minuscule, but it does demonstrate a point. Nowadays, the wizard can only shoot a handful of disintegration beams out of his eyes per day while he's flying around like Superman; and unlike prior editions, he can't shrug off arrows entirely while doing so. The 5E wizard is less like Superman than the 2E wizard was. (Although, as a point of note, it's impossible for him to die from that fall, due to changes in the dying rules between editions.)

Even a 5E wizard has more in common with Superman than it has in common with Gandalf, though.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Maybe lol. Or maybe D&D can have non-casters and casters emulate the same genre. Right now we have super casters and weaksauce non-casters. Gandalf lobbed like 6 spells total and they mostly sucked. THAT's the kind of character to adventure alongside Boromir. If we're playing a game of magic superheroics, the martials should be superheroes too.
Spoken as if 5th edition didn't exist and to a great extent ameliorated the issue.
No, spoken /about/ 5th edition. The contrast between the power displayed by Gandalf in genre vs higher level wizards in D&D (eg "Gandalf was a 5th level Magic-User) is quite pronounced, whether you're talking 0e, 1e, 3.x, or 5e.

It really isnt the problem it used to be. In fact, it's one of 5th editions greatest successes, how fighters remain relevant and useful to parties of any level.
It is the problem it used to be, in kind, just not quite as bad in extent. Fighters in 5e start wondering why they bother showing up around 13th or 15th instead of 7th (3.5) or 12th (1e).

4E was the closest we got to fixing the issue. Unfortunately it wasn't a success, because players who were spoiled on 3E just flocked to Pathfinder, who showered casters with even more goodies like a newly divorced dad. 4E gave narrative control of tactical combat to non-casters in a way that actually simulated the genre, while severely limiting casters non-combat utility.
5E removed narrative abilities from everyone but casters, and then gave casters more back. It's actually a regression IMO.
Nod. The issue was fixxed, the fix rejected and the issue triumphantly re-introduced in a slightly toned-down form. Acknowledging both that it's still an issue, and that it's an issue dear enough to the hearts of enough D&Ders that 5e intentionally built it back into the core rules is only fair. It's not going to be 'fixed' in the standard game, it can't be fixed by adding a balanced martial class (maybe 4, completely obsoleting the Fighter & Rogue in the process), but it should at least be acknowledged.

No, I don't want to play 4E, I want 5E actually balanced and fighters/rogues/warlords to get to do cool things again. That should be easy enough to do.
It'd require introducing some sort of 'martial power' supplement that replaces the fighter, rogue & berserker with a set of martial classes amped up to the level of casters. Or a 'low-magic' setting that replaces casters with something nerfed to the point that it would look up at the 3.0 Adept in awe.

5e is imbalanced the way it is, by design, to evoke the (probably at the time) accidental imbalances of the early game, that, going uncorrected for so long, have become enshrined as tradition or 'classic feel.' If we play D&D at all, it's because we exploit, revel in, enjoy, accept, tolerate, are in denial of, feel nostalgic for, or just like complaining about that, not because we really want or expect it to change.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
Actually, I've been thinking lately that could be a viable idea, you just have to put what really counts on the line: control of your character. If wizards risk insanity (loss of the character as you become a mad recluse or lich or something) and warlocks risk their souls (becoming pawns of diabolic forces) and Sorcerers risk transformation into an inhuman something from their bloodline (becoming a monster, no longer under the players control), then spells can be powerful, because you won't dare use them often - daily limit or no.

Dungeon Crawl Classics does this: soells are D20 skill checks with major, major consequences for failure. A Wizard is either a miserable freak (or dead) or extremely cautious with spells. Makes for great genre emulation (which was the design goal for the game).
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Fighters in 5E already are superheroes: they can fall multiple stories from a building and keep fighting. Thor is a Cleric, Captain America is a Fighter, and a Fighter with a magical weapon iani that different in capability.
 


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